Posted by Stoli on 2/1/13 8:13pm
Msg #453520

How would you handle this scenario (Acknowledgement)

I am posing a scenario and would like to see how my fellow Notaries Public would handle this situation.

• A ReFi signing occurs in any given month.

• The following month you are asked to go back out to sign a new DOT as the dollar value was incorrect. This is no fault of the notary, and a new confirmation is sent for the trip and signing. Borrowers are fine with this and asked for your by name. All is good.

• The following month you receive notice that someone altered your Acknowledgement by placing a capacity after the borrower’s name (which, by documentary evidence, you know you did not do).

• SS requests you to create an exact duplicate fo the Acknowledgment, including the date of the original appearance, that was originally submitted by you, the Notary Public, and send back to them (SS).

I believe this may open quite a bit of dialogue on the board. Again, I am just posing a scenario that I would like to see how you would handle.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 2/1/13 8:19pm
Msg #453522

Here in Florida I could not "create an exact duplicate"

of the previous ack - I'd have to go back out and meet with the signers and either do it all over again or have them re-acknowledge the previous document - then attach a NEW ack with the current date.

As for tampering with my cert, if I could solidly prove it I'd find SOMEONE to report it to on my state level, especially if that tampering created a situation in which *I* did something against my notarial laws.

JMO

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 2/1/13 8:30pm
Msg #453525

I would NOT do it... because the SoS said so.

Based on the letter I wrote last year asking them about duplicate and replacement certificates... this was the one wherein they answered me in writing and I posted.

They said, "Furthermore, there is no provision in statue that allows a notary public to issue a duplicate or replacement certificate if the original is lost or damaged. If a notarial certificate is lost or damaged, a new notarial act, as outlined above, is required."

My website is down at the moment (bad guys loaded a nasty script) and I'm getting it fixed, but I did upload the letter again here for anyone to read:


www.highdesertnotary.com/casosletter0912.pdf

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 2/1/13 8:38pm
Msg #453527

Re: I would NOT do it... because the SoS said so.

Well... just in case... let's make that a clickable link:

http://www.highdesertnotary.com/casosletter0912.pdf

And for those that missed the history, you can read more behind that letter here:

Msg #435031

Several of the posts under that explain why I wrote the letter in the first place, and this was their answer.

Reply by BrendaTx on 2/1/13 8:44pm
Msg #453531

I would probably decline. n/m

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 2/1/13 8:54pm
Msg #453533

By the way... in addition the not re-issuing a duplicate certificate... whoever altered the notary's acknowledgment may have broken the law by doing that. This is especially true given that in California, we're forbidden from entering capacity on our notarial certificates.


That is found in CA Penal Code 470 (and page 46 of our current handbook):

§ 470. Forgery; signatures or seals; corruption of records
* * *
(b) Every person who, with the intent to defraud, counterfeits or forges the seal or handwriting
of another is guilty of forgery.
* * *
(d) Every person who, with the intent to defraud, falsely makes, alters, forges, or counterfeits,
utters, publishes, passes or attempts or offers to pass, as true and genuine, any of the following
items, knowing the same to be false, altered, forged, or counterfeited, is guilty of forgery:
… or falsifies the acknowledgment of any notary public, or any notary public who issues an
acknowledgment knowing it to be false; or any matter described in subdivision (b).
* * *
§ 473. Forgery; punishment
Forgery is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail for not more than one year, or by
imprisonment pursuant to subdivision (h) of Section 1170.



So, obviously, the SS knows that somebody broker the law by altering the certificate, and now they're essentially breaking the law by requesting a duplicate. Nope...no can do by a CA notary... this requires an all new notarization. Too bad.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 2/1/13 9:13pm
Msg #453537

That's easy. No way

Just no way. For them to ask you to redo a certificate because somebody tampered with it is beyond belief. Like it's your responsibility to cover somebody's patootie after they have perfomed an illegal act? No way (or have I said that before?)

Reply by CarolF/NC on 2/1/13 9:21pm
Msg #453540

Stuff that goes on is amazing and we get put naughty lists n/m

Reply by Susan Fischer on 2/1/13 9:39pm
Msg #453543

You had me until month 3. SS can call my SOS, or just

believe me, the answer assumes "notice" includes a pic of this "alteration" of "my" document for comparison, for instance. From an Oregonian's point of view, Capacity isn't an issue, the supposed "alteration" after a month's time is my flashpoint.

"an exact duplicate of the Ack" = no such thing humanly possible - even with the Original to go by.

"original appearance" is non-sensical. We don't Notarize documents, we Notarize signatures of people, before us, on a given day, at a given time.

Hope this is hypothetical. No question in Orygun.

Reply by Sharon Spence on 2/1/13 10:01pm
Msg #453546

Re: You had me until month 3. SS can call my SOS, or just

Re Marian's post: "... there is no provision in statue that allows a notary public to issue a duplicate or replacement certificate if the original is lost or damaged." This SOS written opinion wouldn't necessarily apply in your situation, Stoli, because the certificate was not lost or damaged. Maybe it wasn't recordable because it contained capacity?? Nonetheless, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to think that the SOS is banning duplicate or replacement certs in general.

Also, re Marian's post about forgery - the caveat is always "with intent to defraud." It's hard to know what the person's intent was in altering your certificate. Some dimwit QC person at the lenders may have added it cos some lenders are hyperactive about including capacity on acks, which, or course, CA notaries cannot do. I don't know offhand, but I would guess the alteration of any notarial certificate, including venue, date, names, etc, is strictly forbidden. Why have a notarial certificate at all if anybody down the line can add their 2 cents and change it?

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 2/2/13 3:03am
Msg #453578

Re: You had me until month 3. SS can call my SOS, or just

"Nonetheless, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to think that the SOS is banning duplicate or replacement certs in general."

I think that's exactly what they were saying... I mean, why else would one need to replace a certificate? Clearly being "lost or damaged" would be the most obvious reasons... but anything else would be so seriously sketchy that it's kind of obvious that you shouldn't do it. Beyond that, what they are saying is that any new certificate issued is a new notarial act, and thus a new journal entry, etc.



BTW... something I always do, especially CA notaries, in order to prevent people from adding in additional names or wording is to put lines or hash marks before and or after the name(s) of the signers. Something like this:

"... personally appeared ----------- James Daniel Doe and Frieda Jane Doe ------------, who proved to me on the basis of satisfactory evidence to be the person(s)....."

That way, if somebody comes in later, and tampers with it, the tampering is obvious.

Reply by Malbrough_LA on 2/1/13 9:56pm
Msg #453545

I promptly give them my attorney's number to call. :)

"...you receive notice that someone altered your Acknowledgement"

As this is only a scenario, make sure you get the hypothetical situation and mention of the tamper in writing.

Reply by Susan Fischer on 2/1/13 11:13pm
Msg #453557

Or, send the original "altered" doc, I strike through

capacity not of my hand; initial and date; note in my Journal the "correction"; photocopy to my email; faxback; and return corrected Original by Certified Mail? (Yes - cc: my atty.)

Reply by linda/ca on 2/2/13 12:55am
Msg #453573

Not sure what you meant by "exact duplicate" unless "exact duplicate" meant to include capacity, however, it appears that is not the case. From what I ascertain that is why they need a new Acknowledgement; because the original one was rejected due to including capacity that someone (not you) added.

It appears that the Title/Escrow company is requesting the new acknowledgement that was rejected, however, the SS is requesting the exact date to be used or perhaps both are requesting the initial date be used. I would let them know that I can allow borrowers to put whatever date they (hiring parties) want, however, I have to use the exact date I meet with them.
If I am understanding the scenario correctly, I would have no concern that someone might add capacity again as that is the reason it was rejected. Make no mistake: I feel it would definitely be necessary to address the fact that someone altered the original. Perhaps that can be accomplished diplomatically by sharing the legalities that Marian posted and by adding what Sharon Spence (?) had in mind; giving them the benefit of doubt, that the person may have just put capacity back in not knowing that it is forbidden in California. I would be concerned about future partnership in fear that someone may alter a future Acknowledgement.