Posted by HisHughness on 2/19/13 9:00pm
Msg #456585

I just did a 179-page reverse mortgate

HUD really needs to take a look at what lenders and title companies require of the elderly. It is a rank injustice to require an 85-year-old with palsy to sign his name more than 100 times in a setting, and often to the same document couched in a different format. There ought to be some sort of sanction to bring to bear against those who anally foist off on the elderly an endless stream of pointless documents just in an attempt to cover their own asses. I get angry every time I ecnounter it.

Reply by jba/fl on 2/19/13 9:13pm
Msg #456588

Re: I just did a 179-page reverse mortgage

I agree with you that that is awful, and one of my complaints about the RM's I do is that the mortgages have to be initialed on each page along with many of the other pages needing needless signatures. But not the whole package, and certainly not that large of one. I wonder if that is state specific or ??? I have yet to have had one that large. My packages run 79-90 pages depending on one or two signers.

Reply by Linda Juenger on 2/19/13 9:30pm
Msg #456589

Re: I just did a 179-page reverse mortgage

I agree. Is there anyone at all we can complain too? Do you think calling the lender will do any good? Why and how can there be such a difference in lenders? It's just ridiculous.

Reply by 101livescan on 2/19/13 9:57pm
Msg #456592

I agree wholeheartedly. I won't do them any more. They don't pay enough, and it's absolutely cruel and unusual punishment...throughout the signing they must lay the pen down and rub their arthritic hands before they can continue. The last one I did was a fiasco because the borrower's daughter was attempting to railroad her mother into this loan. She had no clue of what she was signing and had permanent damage to her motor skills from five years ago. The daughter threatened a lawsuit saying I was "impatient". I know coercing when I see it.

Reply by ajd/pa on 2/19/13 10:10pm
Msg #456595

I did one in October for a lovely couple, visiting their son in a local nursing home. The RM signing took almost an hour and a half since the husband had Parkinsons. He knew exactly what he was doing, but he had trouble doing the signing of his name on all of the lines. It was almost excrusiating to watch and want to sign his name for him. Finally got through it and when I called the hiring company to let them know it was done, I let all parties know why some of the signitures might not have been in the proper place.
Too many papers to sign. Oh, and this was a trust, so they had to add that part to the signiture.

Reply by Bear900/CA on 2/19/13 10:47pm
Msg #456598

That is sad. I use Urban (wholesale division is Reverseit) to originate HECM's and the signing is fairly normal size including a trust. Ask if it's an Urban loan and you should be pretty safe.

There are a number of privately held companies that originate and I have noticed what you mentioned. They don't use the more sophisticated software. I always quote higher as I never know what company I will be signing for.

I am also used to taking more time with these customers so it's a good idea to charge a little more.

Look in the future to seeing a younger set of people getting them as baby-boomers enter the market. The HECM for purchase should be increasing as well. This market is just being scratched. There is a lot more to come, and well, just adjust your fees.

Need to get up at 4:15 in the morning to drive 2-3/4 hrs to attend guess what? yep, a HECM meeting.

Reply by desktopfull on 2/19/13 11:34pm
Msg #456603

I won't do any RM's anymore, they take 3 times as long as most closings, plus after looking at the fees the companies are charging I just can't participate in this huge rip off of the elder.

Reply by Linda Juenger on 2/19/13 11:42pm
Msg #456606

The last RM I did was in a hospital room. Patient was very coherent, but was in a huge amt of pain. We kept getting interrupted by nurses, aides etc. I felt so sorry for this poor guy. He couldn't even sit up. It was horrible.

I'm thinking very seriously about not doing them anymore either. They don't want to pay enough to cover the time involved.

Reply by HisHughness on 2/20/13 1:30am
Msg #456613

I am a firm believer in reverse mortgages

Far from being a ripoff, as Desk has characterized them, they are a godsend for seniors in the circumstances they were created to alleviate. And, with the exception of the mortgage insurance demanded by HUD, the fees are in line with any other financial instrument that carries the same or similar risk.

Reply by desktopfull on 2/20/13 2:23am
Msg #456616

Re: I am a firm believer in reverse mortgages

14 to 18 thousand in closing costs you consider reasonable on a RM? The last one I signed the couples home was valued at $125.00 and the fees were 16,500.

Reply by MW/VA on 2/20/13 7:29am
Msg #456620

I haven't seen any with costs that high, but the FHA MIP

is included upfront, which makes the costs appear high. I agree with Hugh, and IMO RM's are a great option for many seniors. I've also heard they're going to get more complicated under the new Dodd-Frank regs.
I am aware that the many banks are now using an electronic signature pad. IMO it would be great to see this become part of our industry, especially for things like RM's. I've had many people who have no problem signing, but for some it is "cruel & unusual punishment".
179 pages--yikes!!!!!

Reply by HisHughness on 2/20/13 7:51am
Msg #456622

Re: I am a firm believer in reverse mortgages

I have not seen this loan, obviously, but without ever laying eyes on it I will tell you that you are wrong. There was no reverse mortgage on a $125,000 home with $16,500 in closing fees. It did not happen.

You may have had one in which the lender paid off $10,000 in back taxes, or required $10,000 in repairs before approving a loan, but in such instances the costs benefit the borrower, not the lender. That's hardly a reason to make a blanket condemnation of reverse mortgages.

You simply did not have a reverse with $16,500 in fees on a $125,000 home.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 2/20/13 11:43am
Msg #456660

Hugh, your math would put RM fees at about $6k or so

IME, without back taxes and/or repairs, I've never seen an RM with fees that low - they're usually $10k - $12k, sometimes a bit more, sometimes a bit less - but never $6-7k

Reply by HisHughness on 2/20/13 12:08pm
Msg #456665

Re: Hugh, your math would put RM fees at about $6k or so

Yesterday's closing:

Home appraisal: $125,000

RM loan: $36,000 lump sum

Fees $5,454, including $2,240 PMI

Reply by jba/fl on 2/20/13 2:42pm
Msg #456696

Re: Hugh, your math would put RM fees at about $6k or so

Age of person is factor. I've seldom seen that low.

Back to Lender, is this state specific, did BO choose his own TC, etc. Comparing here without actual papers is moot; too many variables in this market.

Reply by dgenoway/TX on 2/28/13 9:36pm
Msg #458642

I guess I got lucky

on my first reverse mortgage. Guy is 70, could sign well and I didn't even realize he was 70 until I looked at his dob. Took me about an hour and 15 minutes and I charged $175.00. I guess that is pretty good.

Reply by Linda Juenger on 2/20/13 7:52am
Msg #456623

Hugh, I didn't say I wasn't a believer in RM's. In all but

a couple of them, a RM was a godsend for the borrowers. I could see the relief in their eyes as they signed. I'm only complaining about the amt of signatures to get it done. Its utterly ridiculous and could be down right elderly abuse making them sign such a huge pkg, some docs saying the exact same thing only using different words.

Reply by HisHughness on 2/20/13 10:02am
Msg #456643

Re: Hugh, I didn't say I wasn't a believer in RM's. In all but

My comments were aimed at Desk.

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 2/20/13 9:02am
Msg #456631

I love reverse mortgages.

In fact, we have one. We pulled out the equity to invest (not spend) to augment our retirement income. Yes, if you are just planning to spend the money, it may not be wise. We also have life insurance. So, that is a comfort. I don't care if we spend the equity in our home, because I believe that at this stage of the game, our kids need to make their own way.
Our costs were a bit under 10K, 5K of which was our MIP.

Reply by Lee/AR on 2/20/13 12:20am
Msg #456611

Agree with everybody. These are cruel...and stupid. n/m

Reply by Resilient/MD on 2/20/13 8:05am
Msg #456624

Re: Agree with everybody. These are cruel...and stupid.

Thanks for the heads up on RM. I've never done one and after reading this....I will not take the signing if I receive call. I also will not take e-signings. My first experience was the elderly and it took me 2 1/2 hours.

Reply by ArtG/KS on 2/20/13 10:55am
Msg #456652

Rm vs equity loans

I have done a few RMs and the rules are changing all the time on these. They are good for some people under certain circumstances and Im not going to go into detail about that. For me, I would rather take out an equity loan if there were a need to pay off a bill of some kind. Again it depends on the details. I do believe some companies have a bit more integrity than others in this RM business but I rely on reputation vs. random selection on who to go to for these.

Reply by HisHughness on 2/20/13 12:02pm
Msg #456662

Re: Rm vs equity loans

*** I would rather take out an equity loan if there were a need to pay off a bill***

An equity loan requires:

1) An income to pay it back;

2) A credit check to qualify; and

3) A means to make a monthly payment.

A reverse mortgage requires none of those. Further, If you elect periodic payments instead of a lump sum, the lender is required to continue paying you even after the balance of your reverse mortgage exceeds the value of your home.

And finally, if you wind up under water on your home loan, it doesn't impact you, whether you have elected a lump sum or a periodic payout: The banks takes the hit.

All this time, of course, you get to stay in your home, which was the reason reverse mortgages were created to begin with -- so seniors could live out their lives in their own homes.

By and large people such as Desk who speak so vehemently against reverse mortgages simply do not understand them, what sets them apart from regular mortgages, and when they are the best choice for a homeowner.

Reply by MistarellaFL on 2/20/13 12:04pm
Msg #456663

Uh, that was NOT Desk

Re:
*** I would rather take out an equity loan if there were a need to pay off a bill***

Better tell Art how you think the cow ate the cabbage.

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 2/20/13 12:31pm
Msg #456670

When the person can't sign it may be prudent to ask title

about a POA. Several years ago I had a signing for a couple. The wife had ALS. she could hardly hold the pen.
I talked to title and explained the situation. They drew up a POA so the wife only had to sign twice: once in my book and once for the POA. The husband signed for her.

Reply by TacomaBoy on 2/20/13 3:31pm
Msg #456708

My Funniest Signing

So, I beat up my borrowers with a monster RM package for a good 2+ hours. The borrowers were a delight; we scratched and joked the whole time. When I got to the end of the package I turned to Mrs. and said, "OK! The bank's papers are all signed, now we need to sign ALL OF YOUR PAPERS as well." Of course, everyone I pull this gag on turns speechless until I confess of my juvenile humor. We always have good laugh. However, this feisty 85+ year old lady turns to me in a very sober tone of voice and says to me, "Young man (I loved that part!) before you try that little joke again, it might be a good idea to make sure there are no WEAPONS in the house." ROFL!