Posted by Belinda/CA on 2/5/13 6:22pm
Msg #454160

I refused to notarize today because ID does not match docs.

Title was going to fix it but can't seem to get it together so “all involved decided it was okay if the ID did not match”. This was communicated to me through the signing service.

Docs = John Paul Jones Senior
ID = John Jones

SS "So, since no one is concerned, can you go ahead and do this one for us?"

"Noooo."

"Well, is that a yes or no!? We'll have to find someone to print and be there in 30 minutes now!"

“Five days ago I brought this issue to your attention and explained the reasons I could not notarize the documents. You completely understood my reasoning then, and was going to get the ID issue to title. It is not like this is happening without fair warning. This should have been sorted out hours if not days ago. I have called you twice this morning to find out if docs are coming in. The borrower is calling me to find out what is going on because no one is returning his calls. You are the ones calling me 30 minutes before the signing to say use the old docs and notarize anyway. I am not the one who took this to the limit."

"We'll find another notary. We always do and we can have them there in 30 minutes!" Click

Amazing. I wonder if they ever really did mention it to title.
More amazing is they will find a notary to do it.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 2/5/13 6:37pm
Msg #454163

I understand the California rules are more specific than many other states, but those rules do call for "reasonable reliance" on identity documents. In my mind, senior is the default, so ID that does not have a suffix is OK for senior. Also, an acceptable driver license, passport, etc., with the right first and last name, and no middle name is good enough to allow the notary to look at additional evidence to verify the middle name or initial.

I would think that this is a different case than a notary taking it upon him/herself to link names by looking, for example, a driver's license that says Mary Smith and a marriage certificate that says she married John Jones to conclude her current name is Mary Jones. Traditionally when it comes to names, the first and last names are much more important than the middle name, and names are all about culture and tradition.

Reply by NewPhoenix on 2/5/13 6:55pm
Msg #454166

I refused to notarize today because ID does not match docs.

Hey I'd like a response to this: do you accept a Marriage License as a valid ID (what states?). I mean with some other form of ID with a maiden name? I always refuse because I want AN ACTUAL ID that shows the name I am expected to witness.

On the divorce side: In one signing the woman bought her house, got married (and changed her DL) then got divorced and wanted to refinance. The house was still in her maiden name (and the docs) but her only ID was her "new" married name. I was trying to find a way to make it work and it turned out that her EX MIL was a Notary. I asked "Does she know you by that name?" she said yes. I said fine, she can witness your signature and I will do everything else.

But what about the Marriage License as ID situation?

Reply by VT_Syrup on 2/5/13 7:18pm
Msg #454175

I don't have any definite rules to guide me. I would not be inclined to accept a marriage license as an ID. I would not say anything to the would-be signer about the documents, but I think it should be possible to word the documents so the signer can sign in the name they have ID for. Why should I put my butt on the line because someone else can't be bothered to word the documents correctly?

That said, I don't insist that one single ID have everything I would like to see within its 4 corners. For example, I might accept a current driver license with the married name and an expired passport with the maiden name, even though I wouldn't usually accept an expired passport. But the old picture better look like her.

Reply by NJDiva on 2/5/13 8:58pm
Msg #454191

VT Syrup, I'm not sure that I'm following you..

"Also, an acceptable driver license, passport, etc., with the right first and last name, and no middle name is good enough to allow the notary to look at additional evidence to verify the middle name or initial."

Just to be the devil's advocate here...Can you do the same for someone like George Forman's kids?

They're all named George Forman....hmmm, not sure that that methodology is a valid source of proof.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 2/5/13 10:19pm
Msg #454197

Re: VT Syrup, I'm not sure that I'm following you..

Assuming that a notary isn't using credible witnesses or (except CA) personal knowledge, the notary will have to use ID cards. Some states specify what those should be, and even in the states that don't specify, the notary will want to use a good quality ID. But the ID doesn't have to be an exact match, it just has to be reasonable to rely on it. Given the naming traditions in our country, I feel that if the first and last names on the ID match the first and last names on the document (allowing for well-known nicknames), and there is no contradiction for the middle name or initial, then I can say that I relied on the ID. But there may be aspects of the ID that make me want to look further. Maybe the picture has a beard and the person is clean-shaven, so I'm not sure if the picture matches. Maybe the ID is only 2 years old and the person seems to have lost 75 pounds. Maybe the ID lacks a middle name. So I may want to ask for additional evidence that I have the right person. I certainly would want to in the case of the middle name not being on the ID. But if the person didn't have a quality ID where at least the first and last name matched, I'd just decline rather than ask for more evidence.

There will always be many people with the same name, and I don't believe I have any official responsibility to seek out proof that I have the right one; I'm an notary, not a private investigator. But I should pay attention to any discrepancies I happen to come across. Certainly the fact that a person has physical access to the house that is the subject of the real estate transaction tends to show I have the right person, although it isn't conclusive.

Reply by Gary Boehm on 2/5/13 6:43pm
Msg #454164

I refused to notarize today because ID does not match docs.

I've had this happen several times. They always seem to be amazed when I refuse to "just do it the way it is". When they say they will find someone else I REALLY want to follow up at the county records a month later to catch the notary who did it, but I usually forget and it is usually at a distant county. Is there a procedure for challenging a situation like this?

I have had to say "Look, it is MY Notary Commission that is at stake here, not you."

My last was a package that said Roger Jones. His DL was Leroy R Jones. "Can't you just do it?" they pleaded. I told them "I can do his signature as Leroy R Jones" but they couldn't have that. Between phone calls he told me "My birth certificate says Leroy Jones but my mother used a pencil and crossed it out and wrote Roger on it". Great. Oh and I was there at the bank for 1 hour and 45 minutes, TWICE as long as the signing would have been. I'll see if they pay me. I never did get the call for the resign. Yeah this is one I should follow up on.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 2/5/13 7:21pm
Msg #454176

Wouldn't following up be futile? How do you know the signer didn't find a notary who knows him personally? Or maybe the signer scrounged around and found an acceptable ID to show to the new notary.

Reply by Gary Boehm on 2/5/13 11:03pm
Msg #454200

In this case the borrower swore that he had no other ID (with him or at home) that had any other name (besides the crossed out birth certificate).

Sometimes I think I could go to the county Recorder's Office and pull the recorded Mortage a month later to see how it was signed and of course get the Notary's name. Then, I dunno, maybe turn it over to the Sec of State's office and ask them to have the notary show what form if ID they used and the name that was on it. Title would have a copy and state would have the current DL anyway.
It might come to nothing and the Notary could probably wriggle out of it anyway but maybe make them think twice the next time. Especially if they are one of the $65 signing Agents.

Reply by Mary_in_VA on 2/6/13 2:04am
Msg #454203

I am "Mary E.", my mother is "Mary P." and...

there's an attorney in Wisconsin who lost her license for a year (and then got it back) whose name is "Mary L.", and my brother is "Jack W., Jr." - all of us with the same very unusual last name..."Scheible".

My father used "Sr." after the birth of my brother. "Sr." almost never appears on i.d.s as it is a social construct, not a legal one. "Jr." is a legal one, as it appears on birth certificates.

That is not to say that I would never notarize such documents with such i.d., but I would absolutely require and document additional i.d., i.e. social security card, military retiree i.d., birth certificate, marriage certificate, and I would also absolutely require that the package contain a sworn name affidavit!

In other words, if you choose to notarize in such a case...CYA!

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 2/6/13 7:36am
Msg #454205

Re: I am "Mary E.", my mother is "Mary P." and...

"and I would also absolutely require that the package contain a sworn name affidavit!"

Why? What does this accomplish for you the notary? Nothing. And IMO, unless you're working for the lender or TC, it's not your call to REQUIRE a single thing be contained in the package. That's beyond the scope of your authority.

JMNSHO

Reply by Jodith/WA on 2/6/13 11:15pm
Msg #454442

Re: I am "Mary E.", my mother is "Mary P." and...

My problem with relying on a name affidavit, is that if the person you're signing is lying about who they are, they wouldn't have any scruple about swearing to a lie on the AKA form. My concern isn't making title happy, my concern is making sure I do my due diligence in making sure the person before me is the person listed on the documents. If the documents have a middle name, there darn sure needs to be a middle name on the ID, or at least on some ID that can corroborate the identity. I may use a passport to confirm the middle name. If a woman has a maiden name as her middle name on the documents, I'll look at the marriage certificate to verify her maiden name if she has nothing else. But I'm not relying on the person signing swearing that they are the person on the documents. I need some reliable documents that match the name on the documents, or the name of the documents have to be changed. I've received permission from Title several times to notarize as the ID even though it doesn't match the documents or to correct the name on the documents.

I think the big thing here is just to do your due diligence within the laws of your state.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 2/6/13 9:13am
Msg #454211

Re: I am "Mary E.", my mother is "Mary P." and...

Mary in VA wrote "My father used 'Sr.' after the birth of my brother. 'Sr.' almost never appears on i.d.s as it is a social construct, not a legal one. 'Jr.' is a legal one, as it appears on birth certificates."

I agree that "Sr." almost never appears on IDs. As for birth certificates, there are something like 14,000 different versions of birth certificates in circulation in this country. Each state has it's own version, and they change their legislation from time to time on what should be recorded on a new birth certificate.

As for whether "Jr." is part of the name, you can find Texas court decisions that says it isn't. The Connecticut State Library used to have a web page quoting a Connecticut court decision saying there was no law or court decision in Connecticut to decide what the proper use of suffixes was. At a notary forum put on by the Vermont SOS, the speaker (an attorney and former Deputy Secretary of State) said it would be possible to go to court for a name change, where only the suffix was being changed. And if you were born in a state that considered the suffix to be part of the name, but you moved to a state that didn't, what then?

The bottom line is that in our culture, names can't be matched in a robotic fashion, and notaries must use their understanding of normal naming practices and normal circumstances, such as people getting married and ancestors dying, to make a reasonable determination if the ID matches.

Reply by Stephanie Santiago on 2/6/13 12:37pm
Msg #454258

Re: I am "Mary E.", my mother is "Mary P." and...

Read Message #453108 from Marian in California relating to this issue.

Reply by SharonMN on 2/6/13 10:44am
Msg #454222

Well, you can always notarize with the name on the ID. If nobody cares that's not the name on the documents, not your problem. All you need be concerned about is that "John Jones" appeared before you and presented ID in that name.