Posted by LisaWI on 2/22/13 1:26pm
Msg #457168

Question and/or Survey

Please give your valuable opinions on this situation.......Im sure this probably has been discussed before, but I cant seem to find the threads so bear with me....

How do you all feel about SS's asking for borrowers identity info? As in a document being filled out to to back to them exclusively for their records......

I'll tell you how I feel about it and then you take it from there.....

In our world of identities being stolen on a grand scale everyday, I dont feel this is quite necessary. I really cannot come up with a very valid reason of why they would need this info. They dont have anything to do with the borrower on the scale of needing this information. In addition, I feel we are responsible for protecting the borrowers personal information to the highest degree so giving the SS's this info doesnt sit right with me.......

OK, let it fly

Reply by Karla/OR on 2/22/13 1:33pm
Msg #457170

Lisa, will you expound a bit as to which doc and what type of info you are referring to?

Thanks.

Reply by LisaWI on 2/22/13 1:53pm
Msg #457176

Re: Question and/or Survey-Karla

This is an identity form like you would have filled out for the lender and/or title company, with all of the borrowers info from whatever identification they used at the closing, except it is going back to the Signing Service for their records, not back to the title company......

I should note, this hasnt happened to me personally, but with one of our members of the network.....

Im just curious as to how all of you feel about this......

Reply by Yoli/CA on 2/22/13 2:33pm
Msg #457186

Personally, I haven't had such a form. However, I'm in total agreement with you LisaWI. There is absolutely no reason why SS would need such info.

Kind of creepy ......

Reply by desktopfull on 2/22/13 8:55pm
Msg #457251

This IMO violates the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act

Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act
15 USC, Subchapter I, Sec. 6801-6809
Disclosure of Nonpublic Personal Information

This SS is asking for an affidavit containing personal nonpublic info without the knowledge or approval of either the lender or the TC. I absolutely wouldn't do this for any SS without the direct approval of the lender and TC.

The SS receiving this info has definitely not been disclosed to the consumer, and I would never add an additional document to any closing package. This is completely wrong and I believe illegal.

Reply by jojo_MN on 2/23/13 1:52am
Msg #457263

Re: This IMO violates the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act

That was why I brought up the subject with our network in the first place. My thoughts exactly.

Reply by desktopfull on 2/23/13 10:24am
Msg #457275

Wonder what the Underwriter's would do concerning a SS

adding a doc requesting personal info from the borrower's to be returned to the SS? Any request of this nature should be reported to the TC & lender, a SS doing this shouldn't be in business. Ironically, it's the notary complying with the request that foots the bill for an attorney, the fines and charges, not the SS. In addition, you'll lose your commission and face possible jail time. No SS fee is worth losing my business or my freedom. IMHO, this is simply another illegal request (like backdating) made from a SS.

One of the reasons JanelWI was given for collecting this info: "... he also said for their own purposes, but he did not specify what those purposes..."

Are they compiling and selling mailing lists? Do they have ownership or interest in insurance companies that will offer their products like mtg insurance where they get paid for clients they recommend that make purchases?

The rest of the garbage about a borrower saying that they didn't sign and this document being used as proof is total BS, anything like a borrower denying that they signed the documents would be handled by the lenders and TC's lawyers, courts and law enforcement, not some middleman SS that hired the notary.

Reply by desktopfull on 2/23/13 10:52am
Msg #457279

Spoke with an owner of a TC on this matter, her response

She said that if the TC isn't aware of this form being added and sent to the SS this request isn't legal and violates the nonpublic information portion of the GLB act.

Reply by Lee/AR on 2/22/13 1:35pm
Msg #457171

Never had an SS ask for a copy of B ID/s. I can't think of a good reason for this either. Seems to me they are opening themselves up for more liability than they need/want/or is good for 'em. Can't see where they'd have any liability if the notary didn't follow proper identify-the-signer procedures... except this would kinda be sticking their nose in where they probably should stay well clear. Interesting!

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 2/22/13 1:39pm
Msg #457174

Usually lender/tc doc, not an SS doc IME...and all docs

go back to title, not the SS

Reply by LisaWI on 2/22/13 1:55pm
Msg #457177

Re: Usually lender/tc doc, not an SS doc-Linda

This particular SS is asking that this form get faxed back to them and not get sent back with the rest of the docs back to title company.....

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 2/22/13 2:08pm
Msg #457179

If it is not the TC or Lender requesting it, I wouldn't

... pass along that kind of information to any SS that requested I do so.

If they wanted to know what type of ID was used (e.g. a state DL, passport, etc.), without any of their personal information, I wouldn't mind telling them that. Like others, I can't really see any reason they would need even that information.

Personally, the request, as you described, sounds fishy to me (for the very concerns you brought up).

Reply by LisaWI on 2/22/13 2:17pm
Msg #457181

Re: If it is not the TC or Lender requesting it, I wouldn't

Well, I can tell you there are a lot of NSA's complying with this request, because this particular SS has a very high rating here on NotRot and I couldnt find anything threads in reference to this....

Im a little concerned as anyone who is doing loan closings working thru a SS really should be questioning this.....it is our responsibility to keep this information safe as we can.......

Reply by LisaWI on 2/22/13 2:27pm
Msg #457184

Re: Unfortunately......

the bad part to this is, said NSA, takes a chance of not getting paid Which, yes, said person should contest, but they alone are probably going to jump through many hoops to get paid.......that isnt right either......

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 2/22/13 2:45pm
Msg #457192

Re: Unfortunately......

"Said NSA" should contact the TC about the request and their concerns before they even think about submitting the information to the SS, imo.

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 2/22/13 2:44pm
Msg #457191

Re: If it is not the TC or Lender requesting it, I wouldn't

"Well, I can tell you there are a lot of NSA's complying with this request, because this particular SS has a very high rating here on NotRot ..."

You can't assume that just because they have good ratings that all those NSA's are supplying the information you mentioned to the SS. This may be a new "program", or request; it could be an employee (or group of employees) trying to gather the information for their own (possibly illegal) uses without management even being aware of the request.

Without speaking to NSA's that have worked with this specific SS about it and how they specifically handled it as well as contacting the SS (management or owners) about it as well, assuming that everyone else has just supplied the information without question is wrong on your part.

The person in your network should post the information here, as well as the name of the SS, so that those that have worked for them can respond directly (since they have personal knowledge of the request). Or, you could PM those that have commented in SC directly, requesting information from them about their experiences regarding the specific request.

This isn't to say that your OP, as a general question, isn't a valid topic for general discussion. I think it is as some people (newbies and oldies) might not think twice about supplying a SS company that information and your post may change that.

Reply by Notarysigner on 2/22/13 3:08pm
Msg #457196

Agree with the responses but without that name of the SS

what can we do about it?

Reply by Bear900/CA on 2/22/13 3:08pm
Msg #457195

Please ask them and post back for us, thanks! n/m

Reply by Donna McDaniel on 2/22/13 3:17pm
Msg #457199

Re: Please ask them and post back for us, thanks!

I'm thinking Accountable Agents. I know they have a form they want faxed back with the borrowers ID information on it. They've been doing it for years.

Reply by jojo_MN on 2/22/13 3:24pm
Msg #457202

Re: Please ask them and post back for us, thanks!

Have you complied? They are asking for Borrower's name, date of birth, social security number and a copy of their driver's license. Is there any reason why a SIGNING SERVICE needs this information? Sorry, but if a notary gave my information to anyone other than the lender or title company, I would be extremely irate. All the signing service needs to know is did the loan get signed. Yes or no. Period!

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 2/22/13 3:26pm
Msg #457203

Agreed! n/m

Reply by jojo_MN on 2/22/13 3:39pm
Msg #457204

Re: Please ask them and post back for us, thanks!

And I forgot to add. Their signatures. I am not saying that this company is up to no-good; however, they have everything they need to commit identity theft right down to the signature. We as notaries could be held liable if someone's identity was stolen because of us complying with this request. JMHO

Reply by JanelWI on 2/22/13 4:00pm
Msg #457213

I sent an email to Accountable Agents and asked

them for what purpose they would need this form. I will post back if I get a response. It does not hurt to get a direct answer. If any signing agents have already done this, perhaps they asked this question already, and has the answer. It would be nice to get their feedback as well. Personally, I agree that this poses significant issues. As I mentioned to our WI network; all this puffery over "privacy" requirements on one hand just makes me laugh only to have it unraveled by supplying a signing service with borrower identity information that they really don't need. So, I really need to hear the logic that more hands in the pie makes less of a mess.....

Reply by JanelWI on 2/22/13 4:58pm
Msg #457220

Got an Answer from AA:

I asked them directly what they needed this information for and basically they responded that they often have issues where title companies or lenders may need information about identification from settlement and that could be due to loss of documents and or not having ID forms for settlement. So they will keep them on record for that purpose and he also said for their own purposes, but he did not specify what those purposes were, so I replied back and asked him. He also told me that as a signing company, we as the "notary" I prefer "signing agent" will be covered under their E&O and this document helps for security purposes on their end.

His reply to me when I asked about what their purposes were: If the borrower claims they did not sign; they have this form as documentation to dispute their claims and prove that a signing agent indeed met with these individuals on such and such date bearing these credentials.

So, that is the answer so far kids.......

Reply by Darlin_AL on 2/22/13 5:11pm
Msg #457221

Re: Got an Answer from AA:

what! is the the watcher watching the watchers, or what. Don't they know that's what the signing agent is for? A Bonded (etc) 3rd party.

Reply by Yoli/CA on 2/22/13 5:39pm
Msg #457226

Re: Got an Answer from AA:

Excuse me!?!?!??

I've only been a notary in California and only know this State's notary laws and can only speak to those. We are required to enter all that ID info in our Journals. The signer/borrower's signature is also required in the Journal. The vast majority of loan packages includes a U.S. Patriot Act form, which is completed with the borrowers' ID info. That form is returned to TC with the rest of the package. Finally, unless specifically instructed in writing otherwise, I always get a copy of the borrower(s)' ID and that copy is sent in to TC with signed package.

Given the above, would someone please 'splain to me why SS needs that info.

Reply by Gregory/CA on 2/22/13 5:22pm
Msg #457222

Re: Got an Answer from AA:

I still do not understand their logic. Notary journals (for those that keep one) can provide the signing occurred and it contains the requisite information. As far are the E&O statement, our confirmation reflects that job was generally accepted and payment confirms the service was performed. Wouldn't that be enough for coverage under their E&O. ** Scratching my head **

Reply by KODI/CA on 2/22/13 6:45pm
Msg #457232

Re: Got an Answer from AA:

I question whether they have a legal right to that information. Any lawyers want to chime in??

Reply by jojo_MN on 2/22/13 7:09pm
Msg #457240

I also would like to know that answer.

They also threaten reduced payment if you refuse to send that information. This person will be taking this information to the Secretary of State, Dept of Financial Institutions, Consumer Finance Protection services and any other place if I don't receive full payment for my services.

Has anyone else ever refused to provide this information??

Reply by jojo_MN on 2/22/13 7:06pm
Msg #457237

Re: Got an Answer from AA:

Sorry, but that is total BS. Both the title company and lender have all of that information in their records. How many documents have their social security number? 1003, 4506, W-9. Wrong!!
The drivers license copy is going to the title company. Wrong again!!
The signature is on almost every page in the package. Wrong!!
What is "their own purpose"?

We as notaries write down all the information in our journals and on many pages in the packages. If it comes down to going to court or something, it is on us notaries, NOT the signing service. The borrowers appeared before us, NOT the signing service.

WOW!!

Reply by Stamper_WI on 2/22/13 7:50pm
Msg #457243

Re: Got an Answer from AA:

Keep in mind this form is an affidavit the borrower signs. Did AA say if the TC's are aware aware of this practice?
Ultimately, if there is identity theft or other problems, the liability rests on the TC as the hiring entity to AA and on down the chain of vendors to the notary. I am wondering if AA checked with their E&O on this practice? The E&O might see it as risky behavior as would ours.

Reply by DebraOro/CA on 2/23/13 11:24am
Msg #457286

Re: Got an Answer from AA:

WOW ! This sounds like total BS to me, I have never been asked to share the Borrower's personal information with anyone outside of the Escrow, Lender or TC. If the request were ever made to me, I would absolutely not comply without the written consent of said signer.
It sounds to me like the SS might have an agreement with the TC to get paid for the Reference Fee whether or not the loan closes. Goes back to the 3 day right of rescission, perhaps the SS wants to insure that they get paid even if the SA does not.
Food for thought....

Reply by sealed/CA on 2/23/13 12:11am
Msg #457260

I've only seen this with one SS. I just let them know that I will need to get the ok from the borrower to give them their personal information. They then cancel the request. Seems they don't actually need it. Who knew?

Reply by jba/fl on 2/23/13 12:28am
Msg #457261

Sounds like good move on your part. n/m

Reply by Accountable Agents, LLC on 2/23/13 2:11pm
Msg #457309

Of course this form has been reviewed and approvoved by our attorneys and E&O insurance provider. Our clients are FULLY aware of the form. I do not need to go in to further explanation. No offense at all to any of you but it simply is not your concern what the documents state. You are provided with a set of documents to go over with the borrower, witness them sign it, and notarize it according to the laws of your state. If for some reason our agents tell us the borrower does not want to sign something or the wording is incorrect according to the state laws, we advise while in settlement. We are a VERY reputible company and have closed thousands upon thousands of real estate transactions throughout the years. You say your worried about protecting the borrower's personal information. Do you simply forget where you are getting these documents from? Us. We have all the borrowers information (on secure/encrypted servers I might add) from their names, DOBs, SSNs, relatives, employment info, down to specific credit account numbers. We provide this information and documents TO YOU. So your concern is, for the most part, is invalid. Again, I mean no disrecpect to any of you.

Reply by JanelWI on 2/24/13 8:01am
Msg #457418

Dear Accountable Agents

I find your response rather disconcerting. I do not believe our concern is invalid in any way shape or form. We are required to be back ground screened; certified; knowledgable in loan documents; knowledgable in our state notary laws as well as the laws of other states when required; we must stay abreast of changes in the lending industry and continue to educate ourselves on new trends and new information; we are the first and only face the borrower will see in this entire transaction; your company contracts on a per signing basis for closing work and we are not only expected to represent AA in a professional manner, but the lender and title as well; we navigate the borrowers through their loan package beyond just "watching" them sign it.... and you actually think that our concern for privacy of non-public information is invalid?

Every year and every four years we are expected to make sure our credentials meet the criteria and changes in this industry just to say "yes" to a closing and ring the doorbell. Do you think that means we can just dis-concern ourselves from borrower information because we are insured through the contracting entity? We are business owners and have liability just as you do. We are also being contracted for a fee and that fee is contingent upon us meeting expected criteria that your company sets should we choose to “accept” the closing... and that includes the responsibility of protecting non-public information that passes through our hands back to you. We have EVERY right to ask and be concerned.

Any signing agent that is experienced is well aware of the process and how the documents are received. A blanket statement such as “ No offense at all to any of you but it simply is not your concern what the documents state”.

is 100% wrong when those documents tie directly to our required performance at the table for documentation collection, notarization, accuracy, and final pay. If we fail to read your instructions or the title company’s instructions, and we do not collect the necessary documentation, or fail to fax required documents our fee is directly affected and you would in some cases require us to go back at our expense to have it rectified if we make a mistake. The funding of the loan is directly affected if we fail in our duties. It sort of reinforces the fact that we SHOULD be concerned with what the documents and instructions state because if we were just their to "watch" them sign and notarize.....that would not be enough, now would it? There are shared costs all around if we fail.

Further, I could go on with the issues we encounter at the table regarding incorrect figures, incorrect names and or middle initials; incorrect county description and address information; deceased spouses being listed when they shouldn’t be; QCD’s in the package with incorrect information and requiring signatures of divorced spouses that are either not living or not going to be present requiring us to “oops” be concerned with content because a lack of communication has caused issues on our end...incorrect Aka statements and 10 year history forms; incorrect employment information on the 1003 or borrower questionnaires; and my personal favorite, when the loan amount on the HUD is higher than the note... and so on and so forth....I could go on...but you get the point.

I am sorry, and I certainly do not mean any disrespect in return, but a real professional document signing agent is steward of the final documents that have to be executed properly for it to move forward to funding. We do have to be concerned about what the documents state and the accompanying instructions if we care to stay in business at all.

There are so many more points that I could touch on, and there are so many more facets to what we actually do to just be able to get in our cars and go and finally sit with borrowers at the table; but to keep it as short as I can, I would think as a reputable company you would be pleased that we as professional documents signing agents would be concerned and proactive about protecting non-public information as it is required by the GLBA. Instead, your response makes it sound as if it is ridiculous to even give it a second thought because you see all that information anyway...and you are a reputable company. Well, if only being in business was really that easy to sum up.

I am sorry, but that is a very frivolous answer to a very serious and rising problem of identity theft in this country and around the world. I am concerned because if there was an issue, regardless of whether I am covered under the hiring entity’s E&O; the disruption to my business, the cost to defend myself against a possible allegation, or irreversible damage to MY business reputation is nothing your E&O can protect me from and could very well destroy all that I have worked so hard to build. Just as you say you have your reasons for collecting this information, we have a right to be concerned and question it for the very same reasons as you. I would not treat a customer, client or borrower in any way other than how I would expect to be treated. So, I have to ask myself, “If I actually knew this; how would I feel about my non-public information being collected in such a way?” The “why” is very important to many of us who do this as our only source of income. Blindly following instructions does not eliminate culpability and the ramifications it can bring.

Your answer defines us as just the actual mechanics of the “job” itself. When you are actually dealing with small business owners with vast experiences beyond just the “act” or “job itself”. The notary commission is but one tool we use to do our “job”. It does not and never will define the entire scope of what we are or what we do. I find your answer lacks in substance and reflects a mindset that our role in this entire process is really not that important. If that was the case, your only instructions to us would be what you said above:

“You are provided with a set of documents to go over with the borrower, witness them sign it, and notarize it according to the laws of your state”.

If only....you know better than that or signing service instructions would not have gotten so lengthy over time. They would not vary due to different lender, title and state requirements and this is only one simple example of what we are expected to know.

It is your view of our importance to this industry that has to change and then perhaps you will understand why we are concerned, and out of respect, perhaps elaborate a bit further as to why you need this information and why it is beneficial that we comply when we choose to accept a closing.

Finally,

Signing companies/services and signing agents sort of battle with their understanding and importance of each other’s role and value to this industry. Many signing agents believe that signing companies exist to simply just profit off of our hard work. Many signing services believe we are simply “notaries” and seek to shrink our actual worth per job by explaining that all we have to do is print 85 pages, no fax backs and drop same day. Again, as if our entire “worth” is wrapped up in pages per package, notary seals, and faxbacks.

There is an opportunity here to understand one another and value a positive partnership that can be mutually beneficial and equitable for everyone involved in this process. That is why forums like this exist. I would welcome you to take the time to explain yourself further. We as professional signing agent are always looking to improve collaborative effort, evolve with industry changes and hopefully pave the way and make this industry a little better for those who come after us.

Kind Regards,

Janel Lee

Reply by jba/fl on 2/24/13 9:02am
Msg #457426

Well said. Extremely well said. n/m

Reply by jojo_MN on 2/24/13 9:52am
Msg #457433

WOW, Janel. Very well stated. Have you

Have you ever considered becoming an attorney?

I agree 100% with every word you typed.

Reply by jojo_MN on 2/24/13 10:02am
Msg #457434

Signing services should NEVER see the packages and have access to the borrowers information. They should assign the jobs to notaries, pass on the information to the title company, and all documents should come directly to the notary via secure link or overnight express and collect their money for their part in the transaction.

Your reply to this question reinforces my opinion.