Posted by JAM/CA on 2/27/13 5:18pm
Msg #458255

Request regarding religion

I have a signing this evening for a Muslim couple. Escrow called to tell me to remove my
shoes and do not look at the wife or talk to her.

I responded with, "I have a great deal of respect for others religion, culture and tradition. I have
no problems removing my shoes; however, I will speak to the wife to determine if she speaks English
and also to determine that she understands what she is signing." California is very clear on this.

Have any of you had this request?

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 2/27/13 5:25pm
Msg #458257

Yikes!

I've signed plenty of Muslim couples and have never had this insane request. Of course, you're right, we have to be able to communicate with the signers, and that would include speaking the same language .... and probably glancing at the signers occasionally, too.

I'm surprised they didn't request a male notary. Of course, they'd really flip if a male looked or talked to her.

What did escrow say when you told them this wouldn't fly in CA?

P.S. Be sure to bring socks!

Reply by JAM/CA on 2/27/13 5:50pm
Msg #458276

GoldGirl/CA

Escrow told me, if lender calls and complains, they will have lender call me.
I said, I'm fine with that. I have to follow the laws of California. They are in
Michigan.

As far as the Scotch, no thanks! LOL

Reply by Notarysigner on 2/27/13 5:27pm
Msg #458258

I would ignore it,...maybe 1/4 to 1/3 of all my signings involve people of this faith. Within that faith there are different groups, some who will ok the shoes on...also some will require you eat with them before the signing or at least have a shot of 12 year malt Scotch amongst other things.

Just sign the loan and stay away from the scotch. Also, remember not every one/country knows how to right in cursive so don't act surprised if they sign their name by printing!

Reply by Gregory/CA on 2/27/13 5:30pm
Msg #458259

I had a borrowers print the other night. . . .

I was a little concerned about it as I've never seen printing of a name as a signature. But, then I looked at the drivers license and it was printed too. I just put a note in the packet indicating the borrowers signature are printed vs. a traditional cursive signature.

I learned a new one the other day :-)

Reply by JanetK_CA on 2/27/13 5:42pm
Msg #458266

Re: I had a borrowers print the other night. . . .

I did a signing for a couple recently whose signatures were in Arabic - signed right to left. They matched DLs, so no problem. I've run into that type of situation many times, with people from various parts of the world.

Reply by Kathy Fletcher on 2/27/13 11:59pm
Msg #458349

Re:Make sure you know your state laws

In Arizona, we are not permitted for a signer to sign in another language. It must be in a language the notary understands. For me they would have to write in English according to the law here.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 2/28/13 1:16am
Msg #458360

Re: Re:Make sure you know your state laws

Wow! I don't get that one. What is there to understand about someone's name? Many cursive signatures are illegible and I don't see any difference between those and what I saw. In fact, if I hadn't watched them write it, I wouldn't have known the difference. To me, a person's signature should be able to be whatever they want it to be.

In my state, it's a non-issue.

Reply by MikeC/TX on 2/28/13 6:46pm
Msg #458590

Re: Re:Make sure you know your state laws

"In Arizona, we are not permitted for a signer to sign in another language. It must be in a language the notary understands. For me they would have to write in English according to the law here."

And if the signature matches what is on their ID - for instance, the signature on their driver's license - you still cannot accept it if you cannot understand it?

What do you do with signers who speak English yet sign with an unintelligible scrawl? Tell them they must change their signature so that you can understand it?

Reply by doglover/CA on 2/28/13 12:04am
Msg #458352

Re: I had a borrowers print the other night. . . .

I've had a lady sign her name in Japanese characters. It matched her ID. The lender was Bank of America, for whom it only matters that whatever the borrower puts on paper is done consistently throughout the documents.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 2/27/13 6:07pm
Msg #458284

Re: I had a borrowers print the other night. . . .

I've never understood why some people think that a signature must be in cursive. I've seen so many different kinds of signatures... everyone is different and writes differently. And these days, a lot of schools aren't even teaching cursive writing anymore.

I think my favorite, ever, was disabled man who was so proud about getting his own apartment. He had to have the lease paperwork notarized. His ID card had his signature on it...

SAM

That's it. Just SAM in big block letters. Not his initials, but his name. Well, his name was Samuel, but you get the picture. He was so very careful in how he write his name and he was so proud of it. TO this day, that is still one of my favorite appointments ever.

Reply by Stoli on 2/27/13 5:31pm
Msg #458260

Single malt? Can I take mine to go? n/m

Reply by MikeC/TX on 2/27/13 5:41pm
Msg #458265

"Within that faith there are different groups, some who will ok the shoes on...also some will require you eat with them before the signing or at least have a shot of 12 year malt Scotch"

James - a shot of Scotch with a Muslim? I thought alcohol was verboten...

"remember not every one/country knows how to right in cursive so don't act surprised if they sign their name by printing!"

I have had a couple of signings like that - one gentleman explained that his signature would be a bunch of unrecognizable symbols, so he elected to print his name on any documents he has to sign because he didn't know how to write in cursive.

Reply by Notarysigner on 2/27/13 7:52pm
Msg #458309

Re: Request regarding religion hell yes

Mike,...'just because you didn't get a ticket doesn't mean you weren't speeding!

What I said was the truth, hell maybe they were "California Muslims!'

Reply by MikeC/TX on 2/27/13 5:44pm
Msg #458270

If these are devout Muslims, how can they be signing a loan? The Muslim faith does not allow borrowing money and paying interest on it. Was this signing with a "non-traditional" lender that is able to work around that problem?

Reply by JAM/CA on 2/27/13 5:48pm
Msg #458274

MikeC/TX

University Islamic Financial Corp. is lender

Reply by MikeC/TX on 2/28/13 2:03pm
Msg #458510

Thanks - that explains it n/m

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 2/27/13 5:59pm
Msg #458283

Mike.... you'd be amazed.

I once did an investment purchase loan for an individual and his wife who is well known in certain circles (and I'm trying to be REALLY careful here for confidentiality purposes) for preaching about not going in to debt. They were buying investment rental properties.

I'm sure they probably didn't realize that I knew who they were because I don't attend their congregation. But I absolutely know who they are, have known of them nearly my whole life and know a lot of people who *do* attend their congregation. They aren't exactly low profile.

I had an opinion of this particular individual already, and after meeting with him, it was only 100% solidified. I left his home feeling sad because It was clear that the situation was set up in a way that they were absolutely hiding the need to finance this as much as possible. I was only there to notarize and such, and had I not known who he was it probably would never have even registered to me, but it did. The moment I saw the names on the docs my eyes went pretty wide. I couldn't quite believe it.

SO yeah.... despite public assumptions of belief, there are always things happening behind the scenes you never really know about or see the full picture.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 2/27/13 5:52pm
Msg #458278

"do not look at the wife or talk to her."

Makes me wonder if they assumed that a man would be coming by. As I understand it, for an observant Muslim, that kind of request would make cultural sense for a man to a woman. (Hence the head coverings, etc.) 'Course, as you said, not acceptable for a CA notary who needs to be able to communicate with all people whose signatures are being notarized.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 2/27/13 5:55pm
Msg #458280

Socks, not scotch!!! LOL n/m

Reply by Robert522TX on 2/27/13 8:10pm
Msg #458314

Re: Socks, not scotch!!! LOL

Does it have to be scotch, or are their options?

Reply by MW/VA on 2/27/13 8:48pm
Msg #458319

No, but I have a similar situation coming up on Fri.

I'll see how it goes. I'm embarrassed with names I couldn't begin to pronounce. They seem to understand.

Reply by BrendaTx on 2/27/13 10:00pm
Msg #458325

I think Escrow might need a new playbook.

It's already an epic 'fail' if these are your instructions.

As one who is required in my job to know a little bit about protocol in conducting business with those in other cultures, I would say that it would be more appropriate to send a male notary to this signing.

From my little bit of understanding, women would not be involved at all in a business transaction if you are supposed to adhere to the 'no talking to spouse' rule. Therefore, a man should go.

Secondly, I would think that if this rule is being brought forth, you'd be dealing with a different kind of transaction, a transaction that is consistent with the principles of sharia.

Not all Muslims are going to feel offended by having women involved in business transactions. It depends on a lot of different things, and the fact that you're the notary on this one makes me wonder if they know what they are talking about.

Just my guess on all of this.

Reply by Ronnie_WA on 2/27/13 10:15pm
Msg #458328

When have they ever requested we not mention the name of the Almighty in the presence of a Jewish couple? I could give similar examples for all the religions. This is America. We are respectful to all. If you want to live in this country, by golly assimilate or accept us as we are! Why on earth must we give special deference to one particular religion? If they can't accept our American ways, then specify that they want one of their own to attend them. This is simple too much!

Reply by JAM/CA on 2/27/13 11:50pm
Msg #458347

Signing was quick and easy. The funny part was, the wife walked up to me and shook
my hand and introduced herself. She talked to me through the signing. Husband just
simply signed. Very nice people.

So much for Escrows concerns. Makes no difference, I would have done this signing
according to law, no matter what the request was.

Reply by BrendaTx on 2/28/13 6:41am
Msg #458369

*She talked to me through the signing. Husband just
simply signed. Very nice people. So much for Escrows concerns.*

That was my point. New playbook needed.

Reply by Pam/NM on 2/28/13 10:02am
Msg #458407

Glad that it went smoothly

In my mind I was picturing a burka and wondered how you would match id to the person in front of you. I've signed for several Muslim couples and never had an issue. I did one signing for a Hassidic Jewish couple that was protracted, however. And in the end, they served tea in a ceremony that was as elaborate as I imagine a Japanese Tea Ceremony to be.

Reply by Stoli on 2/28/13 12:21am
Msg #458355

I'm happy to see the final report on this one, JAM n/m

Reply by Shan/CA on 2/28/13 12:25am
Msg #458356

Re: I'm happy to see the final report on this one, JAM

I think we all wanted to know how that played out! Glad it went smooth.