Posted by BrendaTx on 2/20/13 7:12pm
Msg #456742

Ring, ring...D.O.J. calling...

In 2006, I got a call from a Sandra at the Dept. of Justice. She left a message on my voice mail. I listened to the voice mail and blew it off thinking that it was a prankster or scam because (1) what the heck would the DOJ want with me? and (2) I had not done anything wrong.

Guess, what. It was not a prank. Ms. DOJ was not playing. She was investigating me and several other notaries!

The reason for the call to me? Well, because notaries were establishing statewide networks and getting work directly from title companies that SSs felt that they were entitled to. One or more of them called the DOJ.

Fortunately, I could direct Ms. DOJ to this site to read my posts about networking and to discredit the claims that networks were fixing prices. I have never discussed fixing prices, nor did any network member say that we should not take lower fees. We said we wanted to cut out the middle man. Pure and simple. When the DOJ understood that, they moved on. (For those who do not know, the theme of networking is that notaries bring their title company contacts to the table and shared them. Network members make rosters of notaries in their networks and share those with each title company contact. It worked well. Well enough to bring the ire of SSs and false reporting of this as a price-fixing scheme. It all went away.)

The point of sharing my experience is because you should be aware that I know of at least ten notaries who are NR posters who belonged to networks who got calls just like I did. Some said that it was because of the XYZ -- the XYZ suggested $55-$65 fees for signings back in '05 and SSs didn't like that. I know that because of who all was called, the networks were targets as well.

Today, I strongly caution you all to be very, very careful about publicly banning together to raise the fees of independent contractors and your own competitors above a certain amount. In fact, it may be collusion and illegal.

We who read here know that the costs of doing business cannot be covered by low fees, but that is up to each independent contractor. It is a wonderful thing to want to help students and beginners to learn that they are worth more than they perhaps think that they are. Teaching others how to analyze the cost of doing business is not illegal. However, banning together to do away with the competitive trade of not taking fees below a certain amount might be.

Either way, I didn't like talking to the DOJ!

Don't take my word for it. Google <doj price fixing> and see what you find on this topic.

The esteemed member of NR and our community who made me reflect on this topic is someone who truly cares about our industry. She is very sincere and helpful and a great business woman. However, this is my experience and as much as I hate to remember those calls seven or eight years ago, any my visits with Sandra while she recorded my explanations and answers, I thought it should be shared as food for thought.

The DOJ is required to investigate all reported issues of this kind. I am definitely not saying that anyone has made a price fixing post here, I just felt it was a good time to suggest that others might want to learn more about it for themselves. Keep in mind that every word on this board is public.

===============================================

http://www.justice.gov/atr/public/guidelines/disaster_primer.htm

"Price Fixing
Price Fixing impacts procurement when business is conducted through purchase order or direct purchase. In this situation, >>>>competitors may agree to raise or fix prices they will charge for their goods or services, set a minimum price that they will not sell below, or reduce or eliminate discounts.<<<<

From Justice.gov

Suspicious Indicators (of price fixing):

Look for situations where competitors always announce their price increases at the same time for the same amount or have staggered price increases with some pattern, such as appearing to take turns going first.

Look for competitors reducing or eliminating discounts at about the same time.
Generally, be alert to situations in which all prices seem to be uniform and all suppliers refuse to negotiate those prices."

Reply by Michelle/AL on 2/20/13 7:50pm
Msg #456747

Hi Brenda, I think it was around that time that I received an email from a fellow-AL NotRot member asking me and other notaries to provide her with our price lists. When I didn't respond she called and asked what I charged. I was brand-spanking new and was happy to talk someone else in the business so I told her my fees. She went ballistic and implied that I was going to ruin it for everyone else in the area. I stood my ground and never heard from her again on the subject. But I'm pretty sure the reason she gave me for her gathering the info was to start an Alabama network of sorts.

Your post makes me wonder...if this has anything to do with that. I'd forgotten all about that until now.

Reply by BrendaTx on 2/20/13 8:25pm
Msg #456764

I hated it...but it ended rather quickly, thank goodness! n/m

Reply by dickb/wi on 2/20/13 7:51pm
Msg #456748

great information brenda...i have written here about the samesubject and refered readers to the el paso texas Realtors asscn anti trust violations that cost many big $ and some prison sentences...we discuss work and where the business is and who pays /doesn't pay but never never prices.....

Reply by MW/VA on 2/20/13 8:00pm
Msg #456751

I know that I & several notaries that I know of had

calls from the DOJ a couple of years ago about XYZ & potential price-fixing, because they had published a "suggested minimum fee list" & many cos. had followed in using their guidelines. Since we are independent contractors, it's pretty hard to prove "price fixing" in this environment.
I did think of that again the other week, when I heard about the person(s) who is actively marketing supplying notaries for $90/signing. That borders on forming a union (call it a network, if you like, but if people are agreeing to that it's closer to a union). Again, that's open to investigation for price-fixing, because you're getting a large no. of people to agree to that, as well as the cos. that have gotten on board with it.
Frankly, I hope they do get investigated!!! Anyone feel like calling the DOJ???

Reply by BrendaTx on 2/20/13 8:15pm
Msg #456761

Re: I know that I & several notaries that I know of had

* Since we are independent contractors, it's pretty hard to prove "price fixing" in this environment. *

I believe that all contractors are independent if they are doing a job for a fee. Some contractors have employees...but their entity is an independent contractor none the less (in my understanding). The "independent" part means the contractor is not drawing a salary.

Reply by MW/VA on 2/20/13 9:06pm
Msg #456772

I'm aware of that, but as I explained it to the gal at the

DOJ, I am ultimately the one who decides what fee I will accept.
I'm in charge of the negotiation process, and not subjected to having to accept a set fee.

Reply by BrendaTx on 2/20/13 9:24pm
Msg #456776

Re: I'm aware of that, but as I explained it to the gal at the

Great answer!

Reply by JanetK_CA on 2/21/13 12:31am
Msg #456789

Re: I know that I & several notaries that I know of had

"(call it a network, if you like, but if people are agreeing to that it's closer to a union)"

I don't know if it's closer to a union or not, but I can confidently state that the group you are referring to bears no resemblance to the statewide networks I'm aware of that came into being as an indirect - or direct - result of Brenda's efforts years ago. In the California network I'm a member of, we do exchange lots of information on a variety of subjects, but we each set our own fees independently. (And all prospective members must have well established businesses before they're considered for membership.) Everyone's circumstances are different - and that's true for all the posters on this board, as well.

Reply by BBuchler/CA on 2/20/13 8:08pm
Msg #456755

Great post.

Here's a thought for all you new notaries - make yourself a business plan. Why? Because part of the business plan is to determine your costs and then how you're going to cover those costs. Asking "how much should I charge" on a public forum is not the business owners way to do business. I doubt Steve Jobs called all his friends and asked how much should he charge for his first Apple.

There are LOADS of websites that discuss business issues, including marketing, sales, customer service, start-ups, websites, etc. Inc.com has a great website that includes start-up information.

My costs are not your costs. My profit margin is not your profit margin. My ROI (return on investment) is not your ROI. You're not in my shoes and I'm not in your's.

Reply by BrendaTx on 2/20/13 8:21pm
Msg #456762

Let me just add that being investigated

doesn't mean you are doing anything wrong...it just means that someone accused you of it.

It is very disconcerting.

Reply by Claudine Osborne on 2/20/13 10:35pm
Msg #456783

Re: Not that again..

I was called several years ago too..The phone call was recorded by the DOJ..They did ask me quite a few questions about price fixing. As I told them..No one or no one group is asking me to set a price..I set my own fees! It was a phone call I never want to repeat!

Reply by KODI/CA on 2/20/13 11:09pm
Msg #456785

Re: Not that again..

The DOJ needs to inspect the SS groups. They are the "price fixing" experts.

Reply by BrendaTx on 2/21/13 7:12am
Msg #456795

Re: Not that again..

SSs can offer anything and it is up to the contractor to accept it.

Reply by ikando on 2/21/13 8:01am
Msg #456800

Re: SS price fixing

Brenda, would you agree that although we can accept proposed fees or not, the SS may be fixing prices by wanting to keep as much as possible & offering less & less? In 2006, many closings were overnight docs paying $125+. Then SS got more involved, & fees fell as our costs rose. I've recently done a closing where my fee was met, but the SS still made more than half my rate. Wish I could have saved that title company money by not having the SS involved. I know they potentially save title time, but are they really cost effective?

Reply by CinOH on 2/21/13 9:30am
Msg #456825

Re: Not that again..

Exactly. If I'm not mistake I seem to remember that it was a SS who sparked of those DOJ calls.

Reply by Darlin_AL on 2/21/13 1:45pm
Msg #456923

The bottom paragraphs which refer to "competitors may agree" to raise fees. From my viewpoint, what we are agreeing here is not to work for low fees. That's different than if, across the states, no one would work below $175, for example. I would think it would have to be a substantial increase to merit price-fixing. I quoted $130 for Christmas Eve, & when the guy was mad I told him "the stores are closed around here already, for crying out loud". It was very close to me, and just a few pages. It appears we all adjust our quotes to the variables of short time &/or long distance.

Reply by BrendaTx on 2/21/13 5:19pm
Msg #456967

I hope that you are all right. :)