Posted by Shoshana/AZ on 1/1/13 6:46pm
Msg #448438

Just curious

I had to notarize a signature on a doc today that required a loose certificate. The signer asked me why we needed the certificate. I explained what it was and of course had her choose which cert she wanted. she remarked that her brother and sister had the same doc notarized at the bank. The notary simply stamped after the signers signed and dated. There was no cert.
My question is: what happens to the signer if there is no cert? I know that notarization does not make a doc legal. These docs were drawn up by an attorney.

Reply by MrEd_Ca on 1/1/13 7:57pm
Msg #448440

Re: In California ...

... such a document, without a correct notary certificate, can not be recorded. I have had to 'repair' such documents when a previous notary has done what you described & the County Recorder rejected it. ( I once had a document rejected by the CR because it had an incorrect notary certificate -- luckily the signers chose the certificate -- a jurat, where the CR said it had to be an Ack. )

Other than that, I suspect that such an incorrectly notarized document could be challenged by an attorney if it ever got to a court of law. I have no solid intelligence on the matter, just a lot of watching 'Law & Order' ect. where the murderer goes free cause of an incorrect warrant, Miranda warning, or whatever. On occasion, something of the sort shows up in the newspapers, also. I figure, if murderers can be let free due to a minor error, a document can be challenged by a court, or even an individual, if there is an error in the notarization and could possibly be rejected.

The Ca SOS seems eager to remind its notaries of the fines ect. that can befall the notary who commits an error such as you describe. As to 'what happens to the signer' ? Potentially a lot; hopefully, nothing.

Reply by Julie/MI on 1/1/13 8:21pm
Msg #448441

Re: In California ...

I guess it's one of those state specific deals.

We have the "lost money" forms from the state treasury and there is no "certificate" just a place for the notary to sign and date. That's what they get. We all know the law makers and department heads don't say "Hark, we must consult with the Office of the Great Seal" when preparing state forms that require a notary's signature!

Our notary laws also state that a mistake by a notary does NOT invalidate the document's intent.
I think that's a good law. These picky states with their picky requirements do not create simplicity for the public. There is nothing complicated about what we do, we are glorified bouncers simply making sure the person in front of us is is whom they claim to be. That's all.

Reply by CarolF/NC on 1/1/13 9:00pm
Msg #448447

Where is the LIKE button for Julie's post? n/m

Reply by VT_Syrup on 1/2/13 7:41am
Msg #448452

Other state agencies

Julie/MI's example of a state treasury form that just requires a notary's signature, date, and seal, illustrates a dilemma. States typically have a law that lists the powers of notaries, and there is usually a clause that allows notarial acts stated in other laws. For example my state says "Every notary public is empowered to take acknowledgements, administer oaths and affirmations, certify that a copy of a document is a true copy of another document, and perform any other act permitted by law." So the legislature gives some state agency power over certain areas, such as lost money. The legislature gives the agency the power to make rules in that area. The notary is presented with a form from the agency that has what would normally be, if completed, an invalid notarization. But maybe the form was created following the proper rule-making procedure, and so is authorized by law. Or maybe it was created by some desk-jockey who pulled the wording out of his ____. How is a notary to know without doing three days of research (and even then the answer may be unclear).

Reply by VT_Syrup on 1/1/13 8:41pm
Msg #448444

It depends on what kind of document it is. Presumably the person or company receiving the document requested notarization. If the recipient has a clue, he/she/it will notice the notarization is invalid and reject the document. If it's a deed or mortgage, the land records office might reject it. But if it slips through and is accepted by everyone, then any eventual problem is likely to be suffered by the recipient, who, when something goes wrong, tries to enforce the document in court and the court won't recognize the invalid notarization.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 1/1/13 11:38pm
Msg #448451

I used to network with an attorney (who was also a notary), who said that when he was a litigator, he often went after improper notarizations to get documents thrown out as evidence. He said he was frequently successful in getting the whole case dismissed, if that document was critical to the central issue of the case.

Reply by Notarysigner on 1/2/13 9:38am
Msg #448458

Shoshana, there are four counties here in California that I know of that will kick-back/reject Docs without the proper Notary certificate.

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 1/2/13 10:09am
Msg #448461

And that's the way it should be! This was not a loan doc. It had to do with distributions from a trust. So, apparently, the 3 other docs were accepted with the improper notarization.

Reply by Stephanie Santiago on 1/2/13 10:53am
Msg #448471

Fortunately, you completed a proper notarization.

Nothing to worry about.

Reply by CinOH on 1/2/13 10:55am
Msg #448472

"what happens to the signer if there is no cert?"

Nothing happens to the signer. They may have to have the doc notarized again, w/ a cert, if the document recipient rejects it. Chances are it won't be rejected unless the recipient knows it's improperly notarized.

A local business called me in to notarize a phone book listing application for them. It did not have any cert. Just a spot for my signature and stamp. I explained that I needed to attach a loose cert to it and I needed them to choose which type of cert.

They said the notary they had do it last time just stamped and signed the form and they turned it in without a problem. I think there are a lot of improperly notarized docs and forms floating around out there that are accepted.

Reply by Stephanie Santiago on 1/2/13 11:02am
Msg #448473

True. Reading Janet's post above should cause us to be extra

careful and make sure each & every document we notarize follows our state Notary Law and that all i's are dotted and t's are crossed.
Janet - excellent post for all notarizations.

Stephanie