Posted by ArtC on 1/8/13 7:11pm
Msg #449486

Notary stamp

Hello everyone,

I was hoping that somebody could help me out. I have my full name on the stamp as it is supposed to match the name on my commission. I sign my documents with a shorter form of my name as I did how I signed it when I went to the county. An escrow company just asked me to sign my full name on every one of my notaries even though this is how I've never signed it before. Am I missing something? Should I sign my full name as this escrow requested or should I have signed it that way in the first place at the county office. Any information on this from somebody who knows the answer will be greatly appreciated.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 1/8/13 7:18pm
Msg #449490

Without researching chapter and verse, you are absolutely required to sign your name on your certificates exactly as it appears on your stamp. No shortcuts. No abbreviations. No nothing. I'm surprised you haven't been called out for this before!

Of course, if you can't read your signature, you're good to go; but apparently it is legible.

When you renew your commissison (if you do), pick a shorter "notary name." I did. Plenty of notaries just use an initial for first name to avoid having to sign a longer name on their certificates.

Reply by Art Castaneda on 1/8/13 7:23pm
Msg #449491

Thanks for the info, will do going forward

Reply by ToniK on 1/8/13 7:30pm
Msg #449493

Thats interesting. My signature is not a full spell out of my name. I never had anyone ask me to sign my full name. Even on my notary certificate registered with the State, I signed like I always in any situation. My legal signature is my legal signature. Any other way is not my legal signature.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 1/8/13 7:39pm
Msg #449494

Florida statutes prohibit that...

Page 82 http://www.flgov.com/wp-content/uploads/notary/ref_manual69-98.pdf

"117.107 Prohibited acts.—

(1) A notary public may not use a name or initial in signing certificates other than that by which the notary public is commissioned"

Reply by jba/fl on 1/8/13 9:47pm
Msg #449518

Re: Florida statutes prohibit that...

And the commissioned name is placed on ones seal. But, nothing is said about the signature - the actual handwriting of said name. The signature should match what is on the application to the state to become a notary. If the signature is a squiggley line or totally legible rendition, it is the signature that is to be used on all notarial acts.

Reply by dgd/CA on 1/8/13 7:50pm
Msg #449495

I'm going with ToniK on this one. My notarial name is my first/middle initial and full last name... my signature, as on file with the SOS and my countys' recording office is a "variant" of that. If I were to sign otherwise, any recordable document (according to California law) would be rejected by my County Clerk. If for some reason, an Apostille would be requested, it would not be recognized.

Odd situation, wish you luck in resolving it.

Reply by dgd/CA on 1/8/13 8:03pm
Msg #449498

Sorry, JanetK And Goldgirl... n/m

Reply by Clem/CA on 1/8/13 8:06pm
Msg #449499

Re: legal signature

Legal signature, could you define that for us and maybe link where it says you have one according to the law?
I know what a legally valid signature is, but do not understand the term legal signature. Thanks in advance for helping me out here.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 1/8/13 9:06pm
Msg #449510

Re: legal signature

I doubt the existence of a general-purpose legal signature. For most kinds of transactions, there are many valid ways to sign. Of course, various states may have laws or rules that command their officers, notaries, to sign in a particular way. But imagine trying to impose the notion of a legal signature to everyone for all, or nearly all, transactions in a state like California. Even if CA tried to impose such a notion (and I don't think they have), how would they deal with all the visitors from other states and countries that have no such notion where they come from?

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 1/8/13 11:07pm
Msg #449530

I would guess ....

... and that's all it is - is that there is no such thing as a "legal signature." As far as loan docs asking for the borrower's "legal signature," I think the lender means the signature the borrower is signing with at that moment (despite any protestations on the borrower's part that they have another "legal signature.")

I think any signature is "legal" for purposes of whatever is being signed at that time and that a signer could use a different signature on another document at another time and on and on and they're all legal. (If somebody wanted to compare different-looking signatures made by the same person, that might lead to all kinds of problems, but as to which one was "legal" if not all of them... I'm no lawyer, for sure, and don't know.) But I'd like to know.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 1/9/13 3:35am
Msg #449554

Re: I would guess ....

I think if it could be established, by all the available evidence, that the signer made some kind of mark on a paper, or did almost anything with a computer, with the intent of executing a document, it will turn out to be a legal signature. Of course, if ALL the evidence consists of one unnotarized pieces of paper with a signature that handwriting experts can't identify as the signer's usual handwriting, that probably won't stand up. But in loan signings, we aren't dealing with ONE piece of paper; most of the paperwork fits together, so one unnotarized piece of paper with an unidentifiable signature is supported by all the other paperwork that it works in harmony with, so it might very well be recognized as valid.

Reply by HisHughness on 1/8/13 10:55pm
Msg #449529

This just keeps cropping up

***My legal signature is my legal signature. Any other way is not my legal signature.***

There is, to my knowledge, any such thing as a "legal signature." To obtain your "legal signature," did you go to court, submit an exemplar of your signature, then take an order declaring it your "legal signature?" If not, exactly how did it become your "legal" signature?

You may have a usual signature. You may have a typical signature. You may have an everyday signature. You may have "Gee, lookee, I'm done a signature with a little smiley face incorporated into it" signature. You may have a signature that is required by your commission as a notary public. What you do NOT have is a "legal" signature.

The existence of such a thing would imply that any document you signed that did not comply with THAT form of your signature would be unenforceable, because it did not contain your "legal" signature thus it did not reflect the requisite intent to be bound by the document.

If you have been telling signers THEY have a "legal" signature, you have been doing them a disservice.

Reply by bfnotary on 1/9/13 7:33am
Msg #449560

When I go to renew my commission, I am shortening my signature, when I register it at the courthouse. Not my name tho, I just use first and last name. However when signing as much as we do. I tried to see about re-registering my signature prior to that, but the SOS told me I had to wait till I renewed. They told me that I had to sign however I registered it. (which I knew, that is why I was trying to change it, lol)

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 1/8/13 8:15pm
Msg #449500

That's not entirely true...

You are required to sign your name on your notarial certificates the exact way you signed your name when you filled out your APPLICATION for your notary commission. This may or may not actually match the name printed on your commission.

See #18 and #19 on the instructions on the application:

http://www.sos.ca.gov/business/notary/forms/notary_app.pdf

"18. Type or print your name exactly as you want it on your commission. The first and middle names listed may include initials; however, a full last name is required. Also, titles or quotes are not acceptable. Note: Your last name as listed in Items 4 and 18 must match. You will be
required to present identification to the county clerk when you file your oath and bond that must substantially match the requested official notary public name shown.

19. This application is signed under penalty of perjury. Enter the state, county and city (or unincorporated area) where the application was signed and enter the date it was signed. This official signature must be used by you for all official notarial acts."

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 1/8/13 8:23pm
Msg #449502

Re: That's not entirely true...

BTW...

"An escrow company just asked me to sign my full name on every one of my notaries even though this is how I've never signed it before. Am I missing something? Should I sign my full name as this escrow requested or should I have signed it that way in the first place at the county office."

You sign it that way you signed your application to the Secretary of State, which SHOULD match the way you signed your oath with the County Clerk.

If it were me, I'd tell the escrow company that you are required by the Secretary of State to use only ONE form of signature for your notarial acts, and you cannot vary it. In other words, the them them, politely, to go pound sand. If they have a problem with that, they can call the Secretary of State's office.

If they get really pissy about it? I'd whip out CA Gov't Code 8225a:

"Any person who solicits, coerces, or in any manner influences a notary public to perform
an improper notarial act knowing that act to be an improper notarial act, including any act
required of a notary public under Section 8206, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor."

Reply by jba/fl on 1/8/13 9:50pm
Msg #449519

(clap, clap) Bravo! Bravo! n/m

Reply by JanetK_CA on 1/9/13 12:48am
Msg #449546

Bingo, Marian!!

Thank you, Marian, for spelling it out so clearly for everyone. Up until this point, reading this thread was like nails on a blackboard for me, since for California notaries, this is not one of those gray areas. It's precisely explained, as stated above. No ifs, ands or buts...

If someone wants to change the way they sign their documents, they should sign their next notary renewal form differently. (There's probably another way to do it, but I'll leave that up to someone else to look up.) Some of the escrow folks out there (perhaps underpaid escrow assistants?) know just enough to be dangerous. Had another example of that this week myself, but I'll spare you.

Reply by BrendaTx on 1/8/13 8:42pm
Msg #449505

Thanks, Marian.

The details are hard to catch sometimes when you think that you already know the answer. (I am often guilty of that in real life and on this forum.)

Reply by linda/ca on 1/9/13 2:56am
Msg #449551

Re: That's not entirely true...

I am coming into this discussion very late, however, I don't see anything in #18 or #19 stating that you can't sign your name as it appears on your commission if it does not match the "full name" required to sign your application. I specifically changed my commission name to shorten it this last time around, using initials only for the first and middle name so that I could shorten my long signature. According to #18 it is fine to do so. What I am reading is that I can use my first initial and my middle initial, however my full last name for my commission and also for my signature on the docs, however, on my application all three full names are required. Is this not what is being stated?

Reply by VT_Syrup on 1/9/13 3:43am
Msg #449555

Re: That's not entirely true...

I noticed linda/ca's post because it uses the term "full name" which is another one of those phrases that is defined differently by various laws, rules, and agencies. But leaving the definition "full name" aside, is there anything that says you have to sign your application with a "full name". Indeed, is there any requirement at all about what the application signature should look like?

Reply by MikeC/TX on 1/8/13 8:48pm
Msg #449506

Is this a serious question, or just a troll?

I'm not aware of any jurisdiction that allows you to sign differently from the name you were commissioned with. So if your name on the commission is "John Henry Doe", that's the way you way you have to sign your notarizations.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 1/8/13 8:55pm
Msg #449508

Nope, in CA you can choose the name on your commission, within their guidelines.

You also then sign your application for your commission. There is no rule or directive that says those must match. See the link I posted above to the application. No directive, no rule. And, I see PLENTY of CA notaries who have a signature that doesn't quite match the commissioned name. The only thing we are told is that the signature we use for that application is the signature we must use for all of our notarial acts during the entire term of our commission. That's because both the county clerk and the Secretary of State need to have that original signature on file for use when authenticating our signature for things like Apostilles. If the signatures don't match, the authentication will fail.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 1/8/13 11:16pm
Msg #449534

Yikes!

Well, well, well. How times have changed. I stand corrected, apparently. I was raised to follow the rule: The certificate must contain "the official signature of the notary, excatly as the name appears on the notary's commission." Perhaps this was only a "best practices" thing. Or perhaps I just assumed that the name on the application and the name on the commission would be the same thing, and we all know what happens when you assume. But actually, does any remember from way way back when that the application did not give us the option of a commission name different than the application name??? (Maybe Cheryl would know since she's on her 93rd commission.)

So, now, I learn that our official signature must only match the signature on our application, which doesn't necessarily have to match the name on the application or the name a notary chose to use on the commission. OK then.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 1/9/13 1:03am
Msg #449547

Re: Yikes!

LOL! My notary experience doesn't go back nearly as far as Cheryl's, but I know it's been like than at least since 2000 when I got my first commission.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 1/9/13 1:23am
Msg #449550

Re: Yikes!

Thanks, Janet! You go back to the Bill Jones days. I got my commission after that ... when that nut case Kevin Shelley (who resigned) was SOS. So I have no idea what I'm trying to remember about our application then or where I got the idea that our official sig had to be exactly as the name on our commission.

Guess I'll just give it a rest!

Reply by jba/fl on 1/8/13 9:53pm
Msg #449520

Or, you would sign your representation of John Henry Doe, which may be a squiggley line or clear as a bell to the penmanship teacher, or somewhere in between....your own personal representation of that commissioned name.

Reply by BrendaTx on 1/9/13 6:41am
Msg #449556

Mike, I was under this impression, too.

But, I see that once again, Marian's knowledge of California laws trumps mine.

I must check to see what Texas REALLY says...I think you sign the way your seal is, but....

Reply by HisHughness on 1/9/13 6:56am
Msg #449557

Re: Mike, I was under this impression, too.

A Texas notary signs documents in the name with which he was commissioned. I have found nothing that governs the format of the actual signature itself.

Reply by linda/ca on 1/9/13 8:04pm
Msg #449696

Brenda/TX, You sign the way your seal is in California, too.

"But, I see that once again, Marian's knowledge of California laws trumps mine.

I must check to see what Texas REALLY says...I think you sign the way your seal is, but...."

I sign the shortened way my seal reads in California and was instructed the correct way to accomplish it.

Reading the law that Marian supplied us with for #18:

**Notary stamp name can be First name initial, middle name initial, however Full last name as in T. T. Toe

**Signature on documents can be T.T. Toe.

**However signature on "application" must be complete full name as in Tic Tac Toe.

That's why the "complete" version of the law goes on to say that when you present your identification it must "significantly" match your Notary commission name. Key word is "significantly" or for the most part, not "exactly."

Why would you shorten your name on a stamp if you can't on your name that you need to "continually" hand write? That is a great provision CA give us that we can take advantage of if we know to read it with comprehension and fill out correctly.

Reply by LKT/CA on 1/8/13 10:10pm
Msg #449524

I agree with Marian

The signature on your notary application is the signature you use to sign your notarial certificates. The name you use for your seal can be any variation of your name, for example: If your name is Helen Marie Waters, your seal can say Helen Waters, Helen M. Waters. H. Waters, H. Marie Waters or H.M. Waters.

Whatever signature you use, must be CONSISTENTLY used on all certs because, like Marian mentioned, when someone needs an Apostille, the SOS office will compare the certificate signature with how you signed the application. If they don't match, they won't issue the Apostille. You can explain this to the escrow company. If they don't like the explanation, then tell them, "TOO BAD!!"

On my seal is my first name, middle initial and last name. Luckily, I use the same short, illegible signature I normally sign everything with.

Reply by rengel/CA on 1/8/13 10:51pm
Msg #449527

I had the same situation..

The name on my commission is Jane Doe Jones. The signature on my notary application was signed J. Jones. My stamp says Jane Doe Jones. I sign all of my certificates J. Jones.

I had a title company call me and tell me I had to re-sign each of the notary certificates on a loan package - and sign with my full name. I told them, "sorry, no can do" and explained the code. They said they would call me if it didn't record.

I never heard another thing about it.

My .02

Reply by Susan Fischer on 1/8/13 11:07pm
Msg #449531

In Oregon, At renewal, my sig had changed. Per statute,

my [First name] [Initial] [Last name] was on my renewal Cert and Stamp. Then, Sig Change doc signed, Notarized, submitted because it's my normal, everytime Signature. I never had anyone question the differences between the two. jm2c/.

Reply by 101livescan on 1/9/13 8:17am
Msg #449565

Re: In Oregon, At renewal, my sig had changed. Per statute,

Way pickier in CA...some counties more than others. Do you all know that every time a document records, the county recorders office looks up your bond on file to make sure it's current, that there are no pending cases re. your commission, etc.

Did you also know that every time a loan is about to fund, there is this "FRAUD GUARD" process that ensures you've not been convicted of any felonies or misdemeanors and that your commission is in good standing, Homeland Security doesn't have your name on their HOT LIST, and a myriad of other screenings?

So changing how your signature appears on a document from what the recorders office has on file could easily delay the recording of any document.

Reply by Susan Fischer on 1/9/13 10:25am
Msg #449587

No bonds in Oregon. And, like Rhonda, renewal app signed

JJones. Cert/Stamp = Jane Doe Jones. Discrepancy doc signed/Notarized, in file. Never had a problem.

Poor CA, pickypickypicky...