Posted by HisHughness on 1/14/13 6:53pm
Msg #450411

On adjusting fees *after* you gain some experience

The following is a post from another thread:

***I am trying to get my fees to that level, however, I have to wait and see if I will get calls from the companies I have requested the updated fees. However, it seems that most are wanting you to keep the same fees for years and it is just not possible if you want to be profitable.***

Be aware of this: ONCE YOU HAVE ESTABLISHED A FEE LEVEL WITH A COMPANY, THERE IS LITTLE LIKELIHOOD THAT YOU WILL EVER BE ABLE TO RAISE THAT FEE.

Many newcomers initially offer lower fees on the assumption that once they have garnered some experience, they will be able to raise their fees. And it's true, they may be able to -- just NOT with the companies they had been working with. Those companies, when you quote the higher fees, are just going to the next newcomer on their list who is willing to work for next to nothing "to get experience." Your new, higher fees will be accepted only by companies with whom you have not previously established a usual fee.

There is some justification for a newcomer charging lower fees; that is done in virtually every profession. However, those lower fees should fall within the range of a living wage, and that doesn't mean $60-75 closings. I also understand that it is a bit difficult to ascertain what fees are appropriate, since most of us seasoned NSAs tend to play that pretty close to the vest. However...here's what I think would be a minimum fee for a newcomer. I invite other experienced NSAs to offer your insights, and let me point out that since you are not disclosing YOUR fees, you shouldn't be publicizing any sensitive information.

In your county: $75 for closing, $25 printing.

Crossing any county line (this is flexible), $20.

Faxbacks under 10 pages: $00. Faxbacks 10-30 pages: $15. Faxbacks 30-50 pages: $25.

These are fees for beginners. They should be reevaluated when you have 100-200 signings.

Reply by Buddy Young on 1/14/13 7:13pm
Msg #450413

Hugh,

I agree with those numbers and they are not far off from what I charge now. I might add that in my county I can drive over 25 miles one way so I would add a mileage charge to your schedule. I charge 50c a mile for anything over 10 miles.

Buddy

Reply by Shan/CA on 1/14/13 7:51pm
Msg #450420

That is very informative. As a "newbie" thus far I am already charging $XXX and have not had a problem. I did a lot of reading on this forum and just about know who to deal with! Thanks veterans! I was glad to read the info on faxbacks (which I have not had), I wouldn't know what to charge. As far as mileage, that's a good way to do it, if it isn't already included.

Reply by MW/VA on 1/14/13 8:43pm
Msg #450433

I hear what you're saying, Hugh, but fees vary a lot by area

& how many notaries are there to compete, etc. While I'd like to agree to minimum fees of $125 & $150, I can assure you the market in my area is not paying those nos. these days. I haven't agreed to the $90 & below fees, and am not interested in "volume" business based on low fees. I still do ok with my $xxx minimum, and I'm not in a rural area & travel isn't a significant factor. BTW, I have 8 years & thousands of signings, and I do know what the market will bear in my area. That's what biz is all about, isn't it?

Reply by nccltnotary on 1/14/13 9:46pm
Msg #450445

Thanks for your response and I have been doing closing for 4 years now and I have completed 1000s at this point because I do it fulltime. What you are saying is somewhat true, however, I have to ask for the increase because it is what I feel is necessary at this point, I have the experience, I am more knowledgeable at this point, I am reliable, and I give the companies that I work for great service. In addition, the cost of living, taxes, fuel, and supplies have all increased and if the companies are not willing to pay, I will just have to go back to the 9 to 5 or seek other avenues that will meet my needs. I feel it is a bit unrealistic for these companies to expect the same fees for year after year. It is just not fair.

Reply by Mary_in_VA on 1/14/13 10:02pm
Msg #450447

Re: Agree with MW/VA - unfortunately!

I agree with Marilyn. She and I both wish we could push these fees higher, but this area just won't, apparently, allow for it. I am "sticking to my guns" as it were, but I do get a lot of "will have to get that approved" and, of course, never hear back. There is no point in taking these lower fees: I'd be better off waiting tables in Denny's! (And my taxes would be a lot easier to do!)

(And I am no "newbie". I spent 20 years working in lawyer's offices and brick-and-mortar title companies and I've another decade plus now of mobile signings. I'm into five-digit numbers now in the number of closings I've done!)

I, too, am looking at other possible streams of income or getting a "J(ust)O(ver)B(roke)". [9-to-5 hasn't existed in years! Try more like 8(:30)-to-5(:30).]

Reply by Stephanie Santiago on 1/15/13 12:17pm
Msg #450519

While I have been in this business for 13 years, I did

modify (increase) my fees after developing rapport with hiring entities - those were the days - and was able to increase me fees greatly with no resistance from hiring agencies.
I realize that times are different, and this may not work so well, as there will always be someone ready to take a low-ball fee for signings.
Back in the day, I found that the fee scale was more beneficial to the Signing Agents.
Anyway, have a good day,
Stephanie
sorry for any typos....

Reply by emilysigns on 1/15/13 12:30pm
Msg #450522

having been on both sides, as I see it....

As previously determined, the notary establishes their own fee. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that; however, there is an average fee for any given area. Once you exceed that fee, the company has to justify spending a greater amount than necessary.

Yes, if you have an established relationship with that company and they know you can produce quality work, you are likely to continue to be successful with the higher rate, as long as it is only slightly over what your average competition is charging.

Once you greatly exceed that fee, they can no longer justify the spending unless there is simply no other option. Don't be mad about this, just as you can charge whatever you like, they are also free to spend whatever they like.

Yes, experience is important, but if they have other reliable options that are $10 less, that's the way they will likely go. Your competition is out there looking to cut rate on you every day. Don't blame the service, blame your competition. Don't assume they are all doing poor work either. You would all be surprised....

Reply by JanetK_CA on 1/15/13 3:04pm
Msg #450553

Excellent point - and very true for areas w/lots of notaries n/m

Reply by NVLSlady/VA on 1/15/13 12:43pm
Msg #450528

and also, what is "experience"? One company I wanted to sign for had a "minimum 2-years as a signing agent" requirement. Well, I'm now in my 2nd year; but, there are probably lots of "hot off the press" NSAs who have more signing "experience" than I do - simply because they work for lower fees and get the work.

I think the fees should be based on overall industry knowledge and willingness to perform flawlessly. And surely, title-producing NSAs within a state should be banding together and charging as if they were Title Agents!! If one moves to a title state, she would HAVE to factor in the license costs in her fees.

Whatever a SS uses to measure "experience," no newcomer should be "willing to work for next to nothing." As a "newcomer" to the biz, shouldn't you demand More - to get back all you put into your new business? After all, a small "fortune" was spent on a high-efficiency laser printer (maybe 2), extra toner, licensing/association fees, notary stamps, shredder, background checks, business cards, pens, case of letter/legal, website, high-speed internet, new tires, iphone/apps, gps, night lenses, reading glasses, hosiery, starched shirts, breath mints, costco membership, classes, commissions . . .

Reply by emilysigns on 1/15/13 12:49pm
Msg #450529

I understand what you are saying, but you cannot expect them to have any responsibility for your business expenses.

When you are telling them what your fee is, do you want them to start rattling off all of their expenses? Do you care what it costs them to produce the file? Do you care that they just had to purchase new equipment, or they just made some deal to receive xyz flat fee? No, you don't. That is their problem, and your expenses are your problem.

You need to determine what your fee is based upon your expenses and your necessary profit margin. It is also important for you to know what others are charging in your area and from that, make your decision. Don't explain, don't justify. BUT, if your competition is charging $150 and you charge $200, don't be mad if they don't call. This is business. It isn't personal.

Reply by NVLSlady/VA on 1/15/13 1:09pm
Msg #450532

Profit Margins

<<You need to determine what your fee is based upon your expenses and your necessary profit margin. It is also important for you to know what others are charging in your area>>

Yes, that's exactly true. That's why small business devel centers make you go through this type of analysis to help new businesses determine if their venture is justifiable.

No, we definitely cannot expect hiring co.s to care about our expenses; but ones demanding "experience" and offering ridiculously clueless $65 e-doc fees should really be considering why THEY are in this business. At some point when the ale is continuously watered down, it has to be sold as "fiz" and nothing more.

Reply by emilysigns on 1/15/13 1:30pm
Msg #450537

Re: Profit Margins

Oh, that's an easy one. They are in business to make a fast buck off of the unsuspecting. And they will, for a while. Maybe a long while, there is a sucker born every minute.

Again, being savvy protects you here. If you know the average fee is $150, you leave those alone. When they are over the barrel, they will call. If they cannot find enough supply to fill demand they will no longer take work in the areas they cannot support and concentrate on the areas with a lower average fee that they can support.

For example, this business model will never last in NY. It is simply not feasible. The average fees are just too high. In CA? In my area, I know that the average fee is $75.00-$100.00 I know this because I have done the reporting. So, for those $75 people, what's $10 to get the work? Many people looking to get their foot in the door will happily accept a $10 loss.

I have not done any $65 signings, or even $75 signings, but I know this is the truth because I have seen it time and time again.

Reply by Crystal Ward-Mason on 1/15/13 1:58pm
Msg #450538

Re: Profit Margins

This whole post about fees has been informing. I'm new have not even done 1 signing yet. Just got my printer today. (This is how new I am). I am in Southern CA, I have not set my fees on my site below $100. Now I am thinking that if a signing service request me then they take their $ portion from title company and offer these low fees to the signing agent. Now I have thought to myself if I did take a signing for $75 that it would literally be within 15 miles from me and I would charge extra for printing. Of course discussing with the signing service if they are offering $75 that my distance is really limited. Would this be wrong? I would like to be paid adequately like everyone else and I do not want to low ball my prices.

Reply by emilysigns on 1/15/13 2:13pm
Msg #450544

Re: Profit Margins

Hi Crystal,

No one can really tell you what fees to charge, but keep in mind that your costs are the same as the 20-year veteran.

You will spend as much time at the signing as the 20-year veteran, and you had better be prepared to do as well as the 20-year veteran. Do me a personal favor, do not ever let the words "I'm new at this" ever leave your mouth as an excuse for anything.

If you are confident in your ability to produce quality work, then charge accordingly. Just know what your competitors are offering so that you do not price yourself out of the game.

Reply by Crystal Ward-Mason on 1/15/13 4:30pm
Msg #450572

Re: Profit Margins

Thanks for the information

No excuses from me!!!. I've been looking at some of my competitors (and I think their prices are low). I will be confident in my work. I'm even reviewing my loan docs from my closing to look over. I have a question I have noticed that some agents charge more for reverse mortgages vs new purch/refi, is there a reason?

Reply by emilysigns on 1/15/13 4:47pm
Msg #450579

Re: Profit Margins

Yes, there is a very valid reason why people charge more for a reverse. The packages are huge and they typically take longer to complete.

Reply by jba/fl on 1/15/13 1:20pm
Msg #450535

You left out tums and aspirin

Reply by NVLSlady/VA on 1/16/13 9:33am
Msg #450656

Tums/Aspirin . . . So True!

think I'll get out of signing; can't wait to market "notary sanity agents"!!

I'm serious: the yellow "pills" (lemon heads) and the multi-colored (m&ms or jelly beans).
I already have the mugs