Posted by LatteLady/NV on 1/22/13 9:26pm
Msg #451598

Who responsibility is it anyways?

If there are documents in a loan package that are copies of land surveys, plot maps, insurance disclosures and old tax returns, is the notary supposed to just guess which documents are to be signed or is it the responsibility of the signing company to give special instructions on which documents need to be signed. Even those which have previously been signed years ago.

I've been doing signings for just under 10 years now. I always follow the instructions of the signing company that hired me. It is not customary for the loans I have done in the past, to have the borrowers sign their old tax returns. If someone requests it, I will follow through with it.

I got an e-mail from a signing company saying that I had to go back to the borrowers and have them sign their old tax returns, which they already signed when they submitted their tax returns to the IRS. THERE WAS NO SPECIAL INSTRUCTIONS TO HAVE THE BORROWER DO THIS. It was something the signing company expected me to know. This is the first time I have ever been asked to go back and have the people sign. I did it, I faxed the docs to the signing company and then asked for a new FED X label. As you can guess, they told me it was my fault and that I had to pay for it myself. So $34 later, I sent off the docs.

My question is: is it customary to have all borrowers sign their old tax returns without anyone asking for it?

Are there any other documents that are old copies of insurance stuff, tax stuff, surveys that you would have the borrower sign without someone asking you to?

Do we have to be mind readers?

Should I have paid for the FED X charges or dealt with the consequences of not doing it at all?

Your thoughts?

Reply by Malbrough_LA on 1/22/13 9:40pm
Msg #451602

I had one like this last week and was a tad bit miffed about it since the total package came out to 235 pages. There were so many interoffice memos and other bs crammed in this thing it was ridiculous! Old 1003 forms, initial loan application documents (THIS is the someone else's responsibility to collect these sigs as I understand it. The BO even mentioned, "Isn't it a bit late for us to be signing all these initial application documents since we're now closing?!") I made a post about it then and my only conclusion then was (and still is) they are practicing origami skills with the docs and making silly paper hats. Perhaps swords also to practice swashbuckling ways?

Either way, keep the unnecessary stuff out of the packet! Just my .02 though.

Reply by pan/nd on 1/22/13 9:43pm
Msg #451603

It's generally your responsibility to get tax returns signed if they're in a loan pkg.

Not sure? Call somebody.

I had one about a year ago where the package was 400 pages....80 pages of loan docs and

320 pages of tax returns...of which only 12 needed to be signed. But neither the lender nor

title was swift enough to pull out the 12 and send those...and instead sent all 320 pages....


which I printed and got paid extra for.


And when I got it all signed...and put a label on the package....it took a front end loader to

get it to fedex.

Reply by Malbrough_LA on 1/22/13 9:45pm
Msg #451604

LOL n/m

Reply by MW/VA on 1/22/13 9:52pm
Msg #451607

OMG--320 pages of tax returns! I can't even imagine

that kind of stupidity. ;-)

Reply by Jessica Ward on 1/23/13 11:25am
Msg #451691

I had a 320 page return a few years ago... it was mine!

You think it's no fun signing one, try filing one!!!

(We claimed the adoption tax credit, and that year the IRS wanted full reporting for all of them. Our tax return packet weighed 7 pounds!)

Reply by HisHughness on 1/22/13 9:51pm
Msg #451606

Generally speaking, when a tax return is included in a loan packet it is because the return was filed electronically, and there was no signature. The lender wants a wet signature on it. That's the reason it's in there, and experienced signing agents learn that pretty quickly without further instructions.

Reply by Malbrough_LA on 1/22/13 10:00pm
Msg #451609

Thanks for the insight, Hugh!

Logically, that makes sense. I've had them sign each and every one, but it doesn't explain the duplicates and triplicates I've had on some w/ respect to 1003s and applications, etc. I'm sticking to my paper hat explanation.

Reply by LatteLady/NV on 1/22/13 10:22pm
Msg #451611

Re: Thanks for the insight, Hugh!

Hugh, the tax form was submitted the old fashioned way and they were already signed. Note, these weren't 2011 forms, they were from 2010.

I've learned my lesson on this one. Does anyone know why they need a fresh signature on a previously signed and submitted to them already?

Reply by JanetK_CA on 1/23/13 10:50pm
Msg #451812

Re: Thanks for the insight, Hugh!

Most people sign the ones they send to the IRS, but don't sign their own copies. When the lender requests they be included with all the other info a borrower has to provide when applying for a loan, I seriously doubt it would occur to anyone to sign those. (Just guessing here.)

I always get a signature on any tax form in the package.

Reply by MW/VA on 1/23/13 8:45am
Msg #451649

Exactly. I'm routinely seeing 2 years tax returns to be

signed by the borrowers in the loan pkgs. these days.

Reply by CarolF/NC on 1/22/13 10:56pm
Msg #451613

I have not been doing this 10 years and without instructions would not have known which of the docs you speak of needed signatures and which did not. And if they were signed as you say, I would not have thought to have them signed again. If they want signatures and initials on stuff why not put a new signature line or at least give us a clue like, Please have borrowers sign...............................I still shake my head at all the different ways companies want things done and keep wondering how long does it actually take to aquire the ability to mind read in this job.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 1/22/13 11:28pm
Msg #451616

I hear you, LatteLady ....

... but like Hugh said, somehow through osmosis we learn that we need to get the 1040s signed and any other accompanying tax forms. The first time I saw those I completely ignored them, not knowing that we were expected to get them signed. I thought they were for informational purposes only. I, too, found out the hard way, but unlike you, I was not shafted for the FedEx return fee. (I'd dump your SS for that in a nanosecond, but that's just me). After all, they could have just faxed them to the borrowers to have them sign; they hardly needed you to make a return trip. And to have you pay a FedEx fee was just rubbing your nose in it. However, if you want to get paid for the signing, you pretty much had to finish the job even though there were no instructions on what they wanted.

Anyway, I've never seen a copy of an actual return filed the old-fashioned way so that might momentarily stump me. They all seem to be e-filed. But in any case, I think the idea is that the borrower is signing the IRS forms to indicate that they are true and not some forgery.

As far as insurance stuff, I've never had anybody sign it unless it had "Read and Approved" stamped on it, which I think I saw one time.

Reply by notarydi/CA on 1/23/13 12:00am
Msg #451617

generally speaking, the documents (old tax returns, plat maps, land surveys, insurance disclosures) will need the borrs signatures. These are generally underwriting/final doc conditions that you will find listed on the lender's specific closing instructions. The "live" (current date and signature) on the tax return makes an old underwriter (at one time me!) happy. This is the document that the borr has used to qualify for the loan and thus their "live" signature is one more way of affirming their authenticity. For the most part, the lender has a reason for every document in the package. Most everything is an underwriting condition or compliance document. I always try to look to see if a "read and approved" stamp is on a page. If it is, the borr needs to sign. Sometimes, the borr is just approving the plat map or preliminary title report to comply with title regulations. Sometimes, they are approving an insurance dec page to be paid through escrow. Sometimes, they are just signing a letter of explantion that satisfies an underwriting condition. Again, you can refer back to the lender's specific closing instructions for the underwriting conditions. It is the loan signing agent's responsibility to know these things need to be signed and that is I guess part of the difference between just being a notary and being a loan signing agent. Apologies in advance if I have come off sounding pompous. And, yes, I miss getting pages signed and have to go back and eat Fed Ex fees.

Reply by HisHughness on 1/23/13 12:50am
Msg #451622

***For the most part, the lender has a reason for every document in the package.***

You live in a different plane than I do, notarydi. I have seen packets with as many as six -- count 'em, six -- fraud warnings, all saying essentially the same thing but in different formats.

But, on reflection, I guess you're right: The lender does have a reason for every document. The reason is that the doc processor is just too damned lazy to clean up the loan packet. He/she had much rather unnecessarily take up the time of the borrower, the spouse and the signing agent than spend his/her precious time doing his/her job.

Reply by notarydi/CA on 1/23/13 1:32am
Msg #451625

Amen, Hugh! You are right on about that n/m

Reply by 101livescan on 1/23/13 8:35am
Msg #451645

Kinda goes with the territory. Many are prior to funding conditions that the LO should have taken care of, long before the documents were prepared.

Much more gets shifted to the NSA's plate these days than ever before. The loan processor usually gets these handled, but not any more. Anything that slips through the cracks usually finds it's way to the final package.

There are many flaws when an EO is trying to close a file, and the lender sends of list of MORE prior to funding conditions than were listed in the lenders instructions to escrow.

Amazing. I attended a signing and the lady was in tears, they wanted so much, over and over again. I said, well, they will probably ask for more before it closes. She texted me, you were right on, Cheryl. They asked for one more pay stub, because they drug their feet for so long to close.

I think brokered loans are more know for this than those direct with brick and mortar lenders.

Quicken is the most efficient and expedient lender, while not the best rate available.

Reply by MikeNot on 1/23/13 10:02am
Msg #451666

Fellow Notaries:
When I do a presentation to an escrow office I always let them know of what docs I do not need scanned to me i.e; Appraisals, Entire Prelim, all tax returns (just sig pages). The doc package is never over 100 pages and I only print the original docs because since we're big on saving trees up here, escrow will scan signed docs and mail a CD to the borrowers. I only leave the the RTC's if its a refi.
My main business comes from an escrow office which is 5 mins away so I usually pick up docs anyway.
Believe me if you have the rapport and do an excellent job, your escrow officers will not have any problems listening to your requests.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 1/23/13 10:11am
Msg #451670

Respa regulations require certain docs be provided to the

borrowers at the table and not leaving those copies may be a violation of those regulations. IMO it's not the notary's call to tell escrow what they will and will not provide to borrowers. I agree that there are some things we should have to do, providing copies of docs to borrowers is not one of them.

JMHO

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 1/23/13 10:15am
Msg #451674

<<cough>>> correct that

I agree that are some things we should NOT have to do.....

Apologies.

I also want to add - providing these copies is what we're paid for and borrowers' copies are part and parcel of the base fee.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 1/23/13 1:54pm
Msg #451729

Here we go again, Llinda

Your post is correct - we get paid (more or less) to provide a copy. But that aside .... regarding your previous assertion, would you pretty please cite chapter and verse where it says what "certain docs" are required to "be provided to the borrowers at the table," and what the violation is and where it spells out the notary's role in this. Actually, never mind that last part, since the word "notary" probably appears nowhere in RESPA.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 1/23/13 4:53pm
Msg #451759

Sorry GG - I don't feel like reading through the RESPA

regulations again...it's there for the reading - google it - borrowers are to receive more than just the RTC at the table.

Also been posted here before - you can search here if it's easier for you.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 1/23/13 5:09pm
Msg #451764

Well, I have felt like reading through the RESPA ....

... and I have many many times and have NEVER been able to find a word about what is required as to copies for borrowers, what media is required for copies (paper, plastic or e-mail), who is supposed to provide copies, when the copies are to be provided, etc. NOT a word. Which is why when somebody pronounces on NR that such and such regarding copies to borrowers is Gospel, I always ask: Show me. And nobody EVER has. And nobody has ever referred me to a post where it is cited. And as far as your latest: "borrowers are to receive more than just the RTC at the table," where did you get this? Where is this written? Who said?

I'm beginning to think it's notary myth. So, at this point, I would suggest to the next person who wants to invoke RESPA as to what "borrowers are to receive at the table," that they offer more than their opinion or beliefs.

Reply by bfnotary on 1/23/13 10:51am
Msg #451684

if they have it in the package, I have them sign it. I never guess. They sign. Saves me a trip back out. I figure if they have it in there, it needs signed.

Reply by sigtogo/OR on 1/23/13 11:54am
Msg #451704

Belinda: are you saying you have prelim, ins, etc signed

even when there is no read and acknowledged stamp? I have them sign tax statements always, but the other docs only when they have stamped needing acknowledgement.

Reply by HrdwrkrVA on 1/23/13 1:38pm
Msg #451724

320 pages??? How much do you charge for the extra paper AND

time? I get the SIGNATURE pgs - not the WhOLE tax return! That would definitely be one that I turned back! I space my closings to allow for an hour's worth of signing (PLUS travel)- that sopunds like it would take several hrs (imagine if you had a READER).

I'd feel bad for the borrower to be dealing w/ such inept TCs or LOs, but just imagine if you went to the hair dresser for a shampoo and blow-dry, but once there, you informed her/him that you ALSO needed a perm, color AND haircut, etc. Do you think they would charge the same? Or even have the available appointment time on such short - I mean - NO NOTICE?

That's just crazy and plain WRONG! They KNEW what they were doing. SMH.

Reply by LatteLady/NV on 1/23/13 2:19pm
Msg #451736

To make matters worse....

After paying out of pocket for the overnight delivery of the tax papers, I am now getting e-mails as to why they didn't get the docs priority mail. Basically, you get what you pay for.

Reply by JanelWI on 1/23/13 2:38pm
Msg #451738

Re: To make matters worse....

My only advice to you is that you must always ask questions even when it is inconvenient or even if they may sound a bit stupid to you or perhaps to them. That is the only way you are going to get to know the title companies that you sign for. You are an extension of them. Remember, "They" know what is going on in their head, but they don't always get that down in instructions clearly to the signing agent. Sometimes they still treat it as if "they" are the ones doing it. So, our job is to critically think about what I like to lovingly call the appearance of "junk" docs in the package and I simply ask all the stupid questions I can at times if instructions are absent, unclear or contradictory. It is not about mind reading, it is about being the last line of defense before the package is signed. It is good business practice not only for you, but for them. Communication is key in this industry.

I also spent time with a title company on the phone going over some of these additional docs, their purpose and what we should generally look for etc...It has helped me immensely and the title company was appreciative that I took the time to ask. I don't wonder anymore, I don't like not knowing, and I don't assume...I just simply ask the questions and communicate. You have just had an experience that will make you a better signing agent. It is not about who has to be right or wrong. You have learned a valuable lesson. Sometimes we have to do it wrong to learn how to do things the right way! Value the positive from this experience instead of the negative. Your knowledge and experience makes you valuable!

Just my 2 cents:-)

Reply by SheilaSJCA on 1/23/13 7:33pm
Msg #451790

well said Janel! n/m