Posted by reba on 1/3/13 9:44am
Msg #448624

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

I received an email with the following request. I am unsure if this question should have been directed to me, or to a lawyer. I would think that the lawyer who drew up the "Revocation" would be aware of this and advise her accordingly. Personally, my "antennas" go up w/ these types of cases. Wanted to know your thoughts. I am in NY.

The email--My mother is seeking to revoke a Durable Power of Attorney which my sister tricked her into signing. She is in a nursing home in XXX, recovering from a stroke. She is of sound mind and does not have dementia. My sister is basically holding her hostage as she has she isn't allowing her to leave the nursing home with anyone. She is also in possession of all of all of my mother's identification and refuses to give it to her. In addition, she plans to place my mother in an assisted living center next week. My mother is very upset & agitated. This is not good for my mother's health. Aside from myself, my mother has a sister and other relatives who could serve as credible witnesses for her. My mother does wear an identification bracelet which bears her name which was provided by the nursing home. Would this be sufficient to notarize the Revocation oof the Durable Power of Attorney?

Reply by 101livescan on 1/3/13 9:48am
Msg #448625

IMHO, this is bigger than simply having a revocation of the POA...someone needs to contact Adult Protection Services. It seems mother is being held against her will. Mother has rights.

Anyone else think this?

Reply by pleasantonCA on 1/3/13 10:00am
Msg #448628

I agree too! Get an authority of some sort involved. I would be up set if my brother treated our mom that way.

Reply by Notarysigner on 1/3/13 1:53pm
Msg #448682

I work with an attorney who deals with this sort of thing all the time. She not only get's the POA revoked, she sues to recover any funds taken and is also awarded damages from the instigator.

I would certainly refer her to an attorney who deals with elder abuse. The client would not have to go to the attorney's office in most cases.

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 1/3/13 3:27pm
Msg #448701

That was my first thought as well, however, since the OP doesn't know the entire story or situation ... I would suggest to the person that emailed the OP that they make contact with the staff and have them speak with the mother as well as document the call and the meeting they had with the mother. The staff can contact the proper authorities if they feel it is necessary after hearing the story directly from the mother, their patient. My thinking is that they would be (or should be) required by law to report it to the proper authorities if they suspected any form of elder abuse, wouldn't they?

It might turn out that the staff may discover that the one emailing is the one the mother needs to be protected from so that she is not tricked into signing something that will undo what she already has in place and is in line with her true desires.

I would also suggest to the sender of the email that they may want to speak with an attorney, as others have also suggested. I think I would stay out of it beyond that at this time as a notary. There story may be true, it may be false, but doing that would help to direct them to someone else that might be in a better position to help them and at the same time allowing the notary to back away from the situation if their version of events is not an accurate picture of the entire situation. If it is not, then they will probably never contact an attorney anyway.

If it were me, and if I had enough information to follow up on to check on the mother, maybe by contacting the staff myself, I might do that, but only as a concerned citizen, not as a notary. As others have also stated, there are always more sides to the issue than the one first heard by only one party.

Reply by Ireneky on 1/3/13 10:14am
Msg #448629

Lawyer

Reply by 101livescan on 1/3/13 10:17am
Msg #448631

Irene, I think the threat of bringing a lawyer in probably will suffice. It gets expensive and once yo get started with a lawyer, cha-ching, cha-ching. Sky's the limit.

The proper regulatory authorities can bring about a satisfactory result, in my own experience.

I could never treat my mother, or siblings, in this fashion, but we're all built differently.

Reply by Art_PA on 1/3/13 10:16am
Msg #448630

You need to retain an attorney experienced in estate planning and guardianship litigation. You need someone who actually practices in the local court dealing with these matters, and who will file a petition immediately. You need someone who knows the local procedures and who knows and is known by the local judges who handle these matters. Good luck.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 1/3/13 10:40am
Msg #448633

I volunteer as an Emergency Medical Technician. If I received information like this in my state, I would be legally obliged to contact the police and Department of Children and Families.

Reply by emilysigns on 1/3/13 11:10am
Msg #448638

I was recently in the position to care for a recovering family member (recovering from a health crisis) and she was completely at odds with the family's decisions. We did not go so far as to force anything, but she was assigned a social worker to serve as somewhat of an advocate on her behalf.

For the record, the social worker eventually came to see why the family felt the way we did and agreed. We truly did have the best intentions.

Lawyer for the legal stuff and the social worker for the personal hand holding advocacy.

Reply by BossLadyMD on 1/3/13 11:36am
Msg #448646

We're verify ID only; not our place to take sides.

As long as the revocation is prepared by an attorney, she has proper ID, and she can explain to me what she's signing, go for it. We're notaries, not our place to take sides.

Reply by BossLadyMD on 1/3/13 11:49am
Msg #448649

Siblings often fight over an elderly parent's care...

I just stay out of it because all you ever get is one side of the story. I've been in this situation countless times. On one particular occasion, a husband was on his death bed and his wife was fighting with his family (her in-laws) over his final wishes. Each person tried to make the other look abusive. I just stayed in my role as the NOTARY.

Reply by ikando on 1/3/13 4:44pm
Msg #448711

Re: Siblings often fight over an elderly parent's care...

BossLady, especially in circumstances like you described where wife is at odds with husband's family, is why I always recommend (after I've completed the notary job) that all the people in the room get their affairs in order. There is less conflict, and the person's wishes are known and should be followed more easily when the documents are signed at a more calm time & place. Waiting until you're on your death bed to decide something needs to be signed is really dumb, but that's where a lot of my GNW comes from.

Then there are the people who will never die, or if they do, are taking everything with them. My mom was that way, and we had to get guardianship to be able to handle her affairs.

Reply by reba on 1/3/13 1:25pm
Msg #448678

Re: We're verify ID only; not our place to take sides.

As the email stated, the sister is in possession of all the mothers ID. "Aside from myself, my mother has a sister and other relatives who could serve as credible witnesses for her. My mother does wear an identification bracelet which bears her name which was provided by the nursing home. Would this be sufficient to notarize the Revocation oof the Durable Power of Attorney?"

I am uneasy with the ID bracelet from nursing home and 2 relatives as credible witnesses for this type of situation. I believe that I will just advise her to review her situation/options with a lawyer and he can offer suggestions on how to proceed.

Reply by BossLadyMD on 1/3/13 1:53pm
Msg #448684

I read that part, follow state law on ID issue.

I was talking about being put in the middle of fighting siblings and claims of abuse. If the mother is of sound mind and agitated because she is being held in a nursing home against her will, then she should say something to the nursing home administrators or social worker.

Its 2 sides to every story......sometimes 3 or 4 sides....

Reply by JanetK_CA on 1/3/13 3:51pm
Msg #448703

Re: We're verify ID only; not our place to take sides.

Like BossladyMD said - two sides to every story. And because of that, I wouldn't consider either of the family members for Credible Witnesses. In fact, in my state, they would probably be explicitly excluded. And I wouldn't feel comfortable with any of the other forms of ID you mentioned, either. (They wouldn't be acceptable here anyway, but I'm just offering my 2 cents...) Especially for this type of notarization, you need to be extra careful, imo.

I think all you can do is suggest the person contact whatever local social services deal with elder abuse. If her allegations are correct, they'll know how to proceed, and if they aren't, you've successfully kept yourself out of the middle of a major headache. Suggesting she find an attorney may be a viable option, but if she's the one who is the problem, an attorney might end up helping her rather than the mother, since she would likely be their client.

Reply by ikando on 1/3/13 4:47pm
Msg #448712

Re: We're verify ID only; not our place to take sides.

"but if she's the one who is the problem, an attorney might end up helping her rather than the mother, since she would likely be their client" - Sad but true statement. Just like us, attorneys can only do what they are hired to do.

Reply by LKT/CA on 1/3/13 5:33pm
Msg #448720

Something no one mentioned...

<<< She is of sound mind and does not have dementia.>>>

...the elderly lady can still handle her own affairs. Granting the daughter POA doesn't mean the elderly lady stops making decision and it doesn't mean she is bound by the decisions of the agent without a say-so. The daughter cannot make the woman stay at the nursing home or anywhere else.

Reply by CentralNY on 1/4/13 5:04am
Msg #448788

Family, can't pick em, I totally agree with ArtPA n/m