Posted by Yvette Williams on 7/8/13 6:57pm
Msg #475974

I am being accused of FRAUD!

Last June I was contacted by a young lady who needed a notary. It was a quit claim deed her father needed to sign regarding a property he shared with his ex-wife- her mother. I actually am familiar with the father because his business (a local barber shop) is in my neighborhood. I used to live at the corner of the block the shop is on, so again- I am very familiar with the father.
I agree to meet the young lady her sister and her mother at the shop. THe father is there- he lets us in. He shows me his ID, I show him the document and where to sign and print his name. He , his ex wife and his daughter have an intense conversation about the paper. Not stressed, no emotions- if they hadnt mentioned it - I would have never known that the mom was his EX. So long story short, I recieved a citation where he is naming me in the lawsuit against his daughters. Basically stating that he thought he was signing an agreement to a loan- and only the signature page was presented- with no information, and he signed it!!!
How freaking ridiculous!
Does he actually plan on proving - that this grown man- who owns 2 businesses- agreed to sign the signature page with no preceeding pages- about a loan - with no amount or dates for repayment or anything....is he crazy! Oh yeah-one important detail I forgot to mention...
The ex -wife passed away a couple months ago- and thats what started this lawsuit. Now he renigs on what he agreed to because he wants the property now that shes gone (her death was unexpected).
I am contacting the notary bonding company in the morning. I hope they can direct me to an attorney in Philadelphia, because a response to the accusations is needed. I am livid! I don't have money for this. But I do have 100,000.00 in E & O, but this man has contacted the county office and reported me- he could affect something I wrkr very hard for. I would like to counter-suit! I want to sue him for lying and bringing false charges! Your opinions are welcome!

Reply by pat/WA on 7/8/13 7:04pm
Msg #475975

That is terrible! You know they can't win but it will cost you time and money to prove it.
It seems to me that you should at least be able to get attorney fees out of him

Reply by jba/fl on 7/8/13 7:11pm
Msg #475977

First, I would take a moment and calm down a bit so that I could think rationally, clearly and precisely. You sound totally wigged out right now.

Do you keep a journal of what you do? Have his signature along with the name of the doc, how many pages, etc?

I would demand to see the notarized page - there most likely is a clue as to the title of the doc, how many pages, etc. so that even if you don't have a journal entry, it won't say mortgage if it is a POA.

Reply by Yvette Williams on 7/8/13 7:19pm
Msg #475978

@ Jjba/fl-m you have no idea how upset I was- I will blame it on the heat! I dont keep a journal, but the page he signed says page 2 of 2 and the botton the words quit claim deed are printed very small but in the footer of the signature page next to the page number. He accuses me of conspiring with his daughters - when all I got paid was $30! $30 BUCKS! lol! What would be my motive? Im not getting anything out of the deal! I witnessed him sign the paper- that he agrees that he signed- he also printed his name right underneath- matches his printed name on another document. smh... Im just angry he would do this- but a man who would sue his own daughters over a piece of property he should be conveying to them anyway...well...need I say more....

Reply by LKT/CA on 7/8/13 7:47pm
Msg #475985

<<< but the page he signed says page 2 of 2 and the botton the words quit claim deed are printed very small but in the footer of the signature page next to the page number.>>>

Where was page 1 of 2 ? In CA, a doc is incomplete if all of the pages are not presented at the time of notarization. Many, many times people will just hand over the signature page and I tell them that ALL pages have to be presented, not just the signature page. I flip through every page, informing the client that I'm not reading the info but ensuring that all pages are accounted for. Not sure of PA notary law but if this appt took place in CA, and the notary only saw page 2 of 2 and did not ask for the first page, the transaction *could be* revoked on the grounds that the notarization was illegal because the doc was incomplete. The signer still has a responsibility to know what they are signing and if they signed of their own free will and demonstrated NO hesitation in signing then the judge will probably look further into the motives of why the guy suing.

Several months back, I notarized a POA for a person at a hospital that made the a family member the agent. A week or two later, that person called to say they didn't know what they were signing, the family member disappeared with the POA and the caller was concerned they'd be wiped out financially. I told the caller that they gave no indication that they didn't know what they were signing and didn't want to sign and should have spoken up before they signed. I said there was nothing I could do. They readily and freely signed. The problem with revoking the POA was that the caller was in a wheelchair bound and depended on others to take them places. So to go in person to their financial institutions to revoke the POA was not happening. I did not hear from them again. I had an appt where the person told me <privately> that they did not want to sign - the appt was halted, I told the family member the person stated they did not want to sign and I wasn't there to make them sign. I collected my belongings and left.

Reply by Yvette Williams on 7/8/13 8:00pm
Msg #475987

No, I saw both pages of the document, I watched his daughter complete the document - filling in all the spaces- I watched him read the document- and I watched him sign it. Its our word against his- the one thing I think is going to save me is that the page he signed does have the words quit claim deed pg 2 of 2 printed at the bottom.

Reply by HARRY_PA on 7/9/13 8:31am
Msg #476044

Notaries public in PA are required to keep a journal and several PA notaries have been disciplined for not maintaining one in the last few months. Best of luck with the fraud suit and admitting on a public forum that you do not keep a journal.

harry

Reply by ladyknc on 7/9/13 11:14am
Msg #476072

If this document has been recorded then.....

you just have to go online to the register of deeds or vital records and you should be able to view all pages of the document where it shows you notarized. I can't imagine what this man, who seems to be void of dementia, would sign JUST a signature page. He had option to look over all the pages. This is his problem altough it feels astronomical to you at this time.

Problem with our country today,IMHO, is that everybody wants to blame somebody else for their own STUPID mistakes. You hang in there. I am praying for you.

Reply by BevTX on 7/8/13 7:35pm
Msg #475983

He's probably suing the dog that walked in front of the house, too. I'm not a lawyer. IF I were a juror for this I would have a hard time believing that he thought he was signing a loan. He owns two businesses so he's obviously a businessman. Sounds more like he's grieving and greedy.

Reply by Sandra G Holland on 7/8/13 7:37pm
Msg #475984

It sounds like you have thought of most everything. I just hope that he drops it. It will be a lot of aggravation and lost income for you. Maybe he has a history of this kind of thing that you didn't know about when you lived there. Were you a child when he was your neighbor?

Reply by MW/VA on 7/8/13 7:57pm
Msg #475986

I know this is very upsetting--to be named as a party to a

lawsuit. I don't know all the circumstances, but will try to put it in the proper perspective.
You acted as a notary & were not party to the transaction. As a notary, you saw his ID & witnessed his signature. As far as you knew, he wasn't being pressured or coerced into signing any document, and was fully aware & capable of reading what he was signing. That's the end of it as far as your involvement is concerned. People & attorneys try anything when they're trying to get out of something. Depending on what is said about you, you may have founds to counter-sue for defamation & damaging your business reputation. I would wait & see how it plays out. As far as your E&O is concerned, he would need to file a claim against the insurance. I also carry business liability insurance for potential situatons like this.
Try to calm down & wait to see if you are subpeoned to appear in court. I'd forget all about any personal knowledge you have of him. This was a business transaction & you had a limited role in it. If he does accuse you of working with the x-wife & daughter to defraud him in some way, make sure you get an attorney immediately.
Good luck & keep us posted on the developments.

Reply by Yvette Williams on 7/8/13 8:05pm
Msg #475990

Re: I know this is very upsetting--to be named as a party to a

Thank you for that. I feel better now. You know, after workig all day and walking in your house to that - but I feel he will lose this case. His duaghters have the same last name as I do, so maybe he thinks I am related to them somehow- therefore giving me some motive. But I dont know them and had never met them before that day. I appreciate everyones response and I will be contacting an attorney tomorrow- hopefully NNA or the Bonding Company can refer me to someone who has experience with this type of non-sense.

Reply by jnew on 7/8/13 8:09pm
Msg #475991

Re: I know this is very upsetting--to be named as a party to a

If I am to notarize an acknowledgment, I always ask the signer to independently identify the document he is signing. I then ask if he is willingly signing this document for the purpose of ______, (in this case, "deeding"). That is the script in our handbook and it may sound a bit corny, but I think it is effective. In your case, it might not make a difference since the guy is lying, but it does show that you did your job within the limits of that job and it offers you a simple defense.

Reply by BevTX on 7/8/13 8:30pm
Msg #475997

Re: I know this is very upsetting--to be named as a party to a

The script in your handbook sounds good. Is there a way you can prove that you read it to them? An acknowledgement in your book or something?

Reply by Susan Fischer on 7/8/13 9:35pm
Msg #476013

By testimony under oath in court. A commissioned Officer

of the State has a presumption of veracity in general, and all things being equal, will tip the scale in the various legal standards from More Likely Than Not, to Beyond a Shadow of Doubt.

Jmho, His suit is a great candidate for Summary Judgment for our intrepid Notary; this greedy liar of a *father*'s chances are mere glances on the chin of Contracts. Heh heh heh

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 7/8/13 8:31pm
Msg #475998

This is one of those times when keeping a journal would work in your favor.

Reply by Notarysigner on 7/8/13 8:40pm
Msg #476002

My question would be, were both names on the quit claim deed. (I've never seen a two page quit claim deed). If it was used as security for a loan, was the loan paid off?, who's making payments on the loan? Finally was the quit claim deed recorded and in who's name?
I don't think you have anything to worry about, they always name everybody including the person who sweeps up the barbershop.

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 7/8/13 8:56pm
Msg #476006

I would have stapled the pages together! n/m

Reply by Susan Fischer on 7/8/13 9:02pm
Msg #476008

As the daughter or the Notary? n/m

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 7/8/13 10:38pm
Msg #476021

As the Notary, of course.

That proves that page 1 had been removed. Of course, it helps to keep a journal too!

Reply by Susan Fischer on 7/9/13 12:11am
Msg #476028

Re: As the Notary, of course. Points taken. I carry a

teensy little stapler toward that end for that very opportunity, and per Oregon law, always staple a loose cert to a sig page. I probably would have stamped across the two pages, which, is a nice alternative/back-up.

This example speaks loudly to the recent discussion about the values of Journals, and the rights to redact-ability when subpoenaed, to me. A notation of facts preserved - it doesn't put you *there* any better than that.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 7/8/13 10:33pm
Msg #476020

For future reference, there are a few extra steps that you might take to try to avoid finding yourself in that type of situation...

I perceive a QCD or POA as being in a special category of document because the signer is giving up something of great value, whether it be property or decision-making authority, with big-time potential consequences. So whenever I notarize one of those, I make a point of asking the signer if they understand what they are signing (unless they've already indicated awareness). I sometimes even ask them to explain it to me, to make sure they get it (especially with a POA). With a QCD, I might point to the three key components (name of grantee, what the action is, and name of grantor) and may even quickly read those portions out loud, unless, as I said, they've already indicated specific knowledge of what they're signing.

I would never leave that to chance and notarize one of those docs without addressing that issue just because the legal ramifications are so significant. I'm not saying you did anything wrong, just making a suggestion about a possible way of trying to avoid the type of situation that arose. But as we all know, there are all kinds of people in this world, and there are no guarantees that those types of efforts will prevent every potential shyster from trying to challenge one of those documents.

Some may disagree with me on the basis of what's supposed to be our "disinterest" in the contents of the document, but I'm not interpreting anything, so I don't see it as UPL. It's just immediately evident by nature of the title of the document that it has serious potential legal implications for the signer and I want to be confident that willingness and awareness are present.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 7/8/13 10:48pm
Msg #476023

I think it's usually pretty easy to discern if somebody gets what they're signing. That's why I always ask an opened ended question to start a conversation, like, "Tell me about what you're signing today..."

99% of the time, they end up going in to far more detail and telling me more than I ever want to know. Plus, by being a little more vague about the question you aren't asking direct or specific questions that could be perceived as invasive or crossing in to UPL territory. You let them volunteer the information themselves.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 7/9/13 12:54am
Msg #476033

Actually, in a general notary situation, I ask using almost the exact same words. (One of the best, most concise and accurate descriptions of a QCD I ever heard was by a person in her 90's! I wish I had written it down. Sure put to rest any doubts I might have had about notarizing HER signature!)

In a signing appointment, though, dealing with a QCD where I'm controlling the flow of documents and the person's mental capacity isn't in question, I find it simpler to just point out the key verbiage, or actually read it, if there are any doubts. Where I've run into this issue the most seems to be with people for whom English isn't their first language, from many different parts of the world. I want to be certain they're aware of what they're signing, not just being told by their husband (it's usually the wives signing QCDs, but not always) that it's just another document so they can get the loan.

Reply by Belinda/CA on 7/9/13 10:56am
Msg #476067

E&O will not cover you in this. E&O is coverage for

errors in your certificate only. You are not being accused of errors in your certificate. Coverage for circumstances of which you refer is a different kind of professional policy.

Thank you for sharing and for keeping us posted in the future.

Reply by Belinda/CA on 7/9/13 10:58am
Msg #476068

Start keeping a journal immediately. n/m

Reply by kathy/ca on 7/9/13 1:09pm
Msg #476094

I cant believe other states do not require a journal and...

even if they dont, I know I sure as heck would keep one. How else could a notary look back on past signings when the need arises and in this business there is plenty of reason the need could arise.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 7/9/13 3:13pm
Msg #476108

Re: I cant believe other states do not require a journal and...

Florida doesn't require a journal but I keep one.
They tried to change notary laws a few years ago to include keeping a journal, but the governor at the time vetoed it citing privacy concerns.

Reply by Kevin/Ct on 7/9/13 1:31pm
Msg #476095

I arbitrated a case like this in Connecticut not long ago. The guy signed the contract, but claimed he never read it. Under Connecticut law the signer is obligated to read what he signs, or knowledge of the contents of the document is imputed to him. I won the case.

Check to see if your state has the same rule of law.

Reply by droman_IL on 7/9/13 7:36pm
Msg #476140

When I first began working as a notary, Illinois didn't require the use of a journal, but I used one anyway. At first I thumbprinted everyone. Now I typically do so for QCDs, POAs or if I get a gut feeling that I should. I did once receive a call from a district attorney's office stating a borrower denied it was he who signed his loan documents. Luckily for me, I was using a journal, and had all his information, signature AND thumbprint in the journal. Once that was produced, never heard anything back again. Now, Illinois requires a journal, and for good reason!

Reply by TeriW/CA on 7/11/13 11:40am
Msg #476341

Being in CA I am required to keep a journal but would, even if it weren't required. I also have been getting a thumbprint for everyone, no matter what I am notarizing.

Also, FYI for Cali notaries, as of the 1st of this year, you must get a thumbprint for a notarization for any document that could potentially affect real property. That includes, but is not limited to, trusts and POA's, as well as deeds, QC, deeds of trust and others. Easier to just get one for everything you notarize and not worry about it. Proof it was them.