Posted by ajd/pa on 7/16/13 7:02pm
Msg #477023
hospital notarization
So I think that I know the answer to this one but I wanted to run this by the collective wisdom of the group.
Got a call from a friend of a friend to do a POA notarization. She explained the situation as her Dad is in final stages of illness. Lawyer has all the docs, Dad signed them in front of the lawyer, but they were never notarized. The complication comes that Dad is medicated/sedated and not able to answer any of my questions or even sign my journal. I told her that much as I want to help, I may not be able to, as Dad needs to appear in front of me. We can get any witnesses and get to the hospital, but the fact that he is not conscious is a big issue. Can the lawyer write something for me. Didn't help that the daughter started crying on the phone with me. We just lost my husband's step-mother, so I know what she is going through, but as my husband said to me, it is not worth jeopardizing my commission, even for a friend.
Any advice; should I decline, or see what we can do? Thank you in advance.
| Reply by Philip Johnson on 7/16/13 7:13pm
Msg #477028
Explain the law, and say how sorry you are you can't
help. Then do what all friends do and that is tell them if there is anything else you can do, feel free to call.
| Reply by Darlin_AL on 7/16/13 7:32pm
Msg #477035
If dad signed in front of the lawyer,
perhaps that lawyer could assist with a solution (affidavit?) to facilitate a cure to his negligence. Yes, most lawyers have staff notaries who accommodate the client in the office. If the document was witnessed by the lawyer, he (she) should've had it notarized right then & there (also many lawyers are notaries). They have E&O policies too. This sounds like and error of omission--that his client's signature was notarized at the time. The Probate Judge may have a suggestion; but the #@@!!! lawyer should bear the weight of that incomplete document, not the family. I would suggest that you call your friend & advise her to contact that lawyer & toss a few subtle hints: such as, "malpractice!"
| Reply by ajd/pa on 7/16/13 8:10pm
Msg #477045
Re: If dad signed in front of the lawyer,
Thanks for the comments so far. The husband just called me a short time ago to see if there was anything else I could do for them. I reiterated several times about "personal appearance" but not sure how that is working. He is not happy with the lawyer (who has known the family for 30 years) right now and very upset. Apparently they won't even be able to get into the safe deposit box without the POA. I truly feel bad for this family and am trying to help but I do like being a notary and will not risk my commission. Tried telling him, what if at some point someone contests, saying "hey, he was in a coma when this was notarized". Don't want to get in trouble. Will still try to make some calls for them in the morning.
| Reply by Linda_H/FL on 7/16/13 8:47pm
Msg #477059
Re: If dad signed in front of the lawyer,
Personally, I think you've done all you can. They need an attorney that can handle this or, at the least, the attorney that botched this to begin with should be filing an emergency petition for appointment of a conservator (or guardian) or whatever they have in PA - and he should be doing it pro bono and assuming all costs. If Dad passes away before this can be done, the court will appoint a personal representative for the estate (again, whatever they call it in PA) and that PR will be able to get into the safe deposit box.
These people do realize the POA is only good until the Dad passes, right? If Dad truly is at end of life, I would think the safe deposit box should be the farthest thing from their minds at this point in time.
| Reply by Teri_PA on 7/17/13 9:15am
Msg #477102
Re: PA allows the notarization to occur based on attorney
See my comments below...where I documented the form of acknowledgement.
| Reply by ajd/pa on 7/17/13 4:59pm
Msg #477198
Re: PA allows the notarization to occur based on attorney
Teri, thank you for your comments. I did get in touch with another PA notary who gave me a copy of that ack. I spoke with the husband again this morning and we have discussed all of this. We are waiting for some other details and may be able to do this after all.
| Reply by Teri_PA on 7/17/13 8:52pm
Msg #477234
Re: PA allows the notarization to occur based on attorney
There is no reason the attorney cannot have an acknowledgement prepared for the POA if he personally witnessed the signature. I would not touch this one. I'd have the attorney handle getting his signature notarized and then it is legal and your friend is covered.
| Reply by Clem/CA on 7/16/13 8:24pm
Msg #477051
You did right. sounds like the layer pulled a late doc deal
| Reply by LKT/CA on 7/16/13 8:45pm
Msg #477058
I do a lot of hospital notarizations. It is heartbreaking to not be able to assist them....and unfortunate that these folks did not take care of having POAs and Advance Health Care Directives signed and notarized while the person was well and able to choose their options. The other thing that's terribly unfortunate is when seniors or others who no longer drive let their license expire without getting a state ID card. Years go by, the person is housebound or wheelchair bound - now it's an ordeal to get them to the DMV to get a state ID. The thing is, in CA a state ID card is free for seniors age 62 and older - plus it lasts 10 years, as opposed to the standard state ID card which lasts 6 years.
In your scenario, you did the right thing by declining if the dad is so sedated/medicated to the point of not being able to answer any of your questions or sign your journal. There was a discussion recently (and misunderstanding) about whether or not to ask callers if a hospital patient is on medication. For me, if someone other than the hospital patient is calling to make arrangements to have docs notarized, I always ask whether the person will be on meds that will affect their alertness or ability to sign. I don't care that they take meds, nor do I care what kind or how much. I only care that the patient is not a zombie when I arrive - and that's my sole reason for asking. Zombies aren't aware of anything and cannot sign.
Your description of the patient - sedated/medicated to the point of not being able to answer your questions or sign your journal - describes a zombie. Again, you were wise to decline this signing.
| Reply by Teri_PA on 7/17/13 9:13am
Msg #477101
Actually, PA notaries should be the only ones to respond to this. PA has a unique acknowledgement called a "Form of Acknowledgement by an Attorney At Law". What this allows is that the attorney can appear before a notary and acknowledge that he/she saw and certifies that he/she was personally present when the individual signed the instrument. PAN has all the types of acknowledgements posted on their site at http://www.notary.org/Members_Only/acknowledgmentsbystate/PA.html and you can also check the handbook. I have always subscribed to PAN's handbook(Practical guide for Notaries Public in Pennsylvania). It is well worth the investment (small) to make sure that you know what you are doing. Pennsylvania has some unique issues, such as yes, you can "notarize" your own signature (it is called a certificate), and yes, the item listed above allows the POA to be notarized based on the Attorney's word and Supreme Court ID number.
The bottom line is that the Dad does not need to appear before you. The attorney needs to appear before a notary and have the form acknowledged.
Best of luck.
| Reply by JanetK_CA on 7/17/13 4:01pm
Msg #477190
Sounds very much like what we call a "Subscribing Witness", which the attorney might be able to do in some states. If this took place here, he might have been able to have his office notary notarize his statement that the father acknowledged his signature before the attorney, then requested the attorney get his signature notarized, if both parties were personally known to her/him. (I don't recall, however, if there's an exclusion for POAs and Deeds. Have only had that type of situation come up once in my 13 years as a notary.)
Great point about the need to be careful about giving or taking advice across state lines!
| Reply by Teri_PA on 7/17/13 8:50pm
Msg #477233
There is no need in PA for the attorney to be known by anyone. Merely has to show his ID and complete his Supreme Court information. It is twist in PA. Similar but not as restrictive. I am aware of subscribing witness as I am also a notary in NJ. Different states have so many different variations, I never answer particular issues on another state's notary law. General signing advice, ok, but notary law...No way. I think that one can give a false sense of security to someone who is making a mistake. I belong to both state Notary associations where I hold commissions. Those are the vehicles I use for technical issues, and they have served me well, as I receive citations from the law which will hold me in good stead in the event of a suit.
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