Posted by Notarysigner on 6/4/13 3:48pm
Msg #472214

Anybody (California Notaries) see the latest XYZ newsletter?

Asking us to oppose this bill?

If AB 477 is enacted, you値l be required to report when you suspect that a senior citizen or dependent adult is being financially abused. If you fail to do so, you値l be subject to a civil penalty of $1,000-$5,000.

I apologize in advance if this was suppose to be in "just politics" but to me it represents new notary
responsibility guidelines.

My wife and two of my daughters are teachers and for years have been required by State Law to report abuse but I don't know if there are fines involved for failure to do so. Interesting!

Reply by jba/fl on 6/4/13 3:52pm
Msg #472215

So in an hour or less (typical signing time)

you would be required to ascertain elements and conditions that those living in close proximity (neighbors, friends for example) could be ignoring? Sounds like Big Brother to me - everyone tattle to the State.

Reply by Notarysigner on 6/4/13 3:57pm
Msg #472218

Re: So in an hour or less (typical signing time)

Maybe all their social workers are busy with checking on criminals that have been release because........there is no more room! Gheez

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 6/4/13 6:20pm
Msg #472245

"... there is no more room!"

Well, they have to make room for all the CA notaries who are going to jail, JD! But I digress.

As riddled with "what ifs" as this proposed legislation is, I'm all for it ... as opposed to all against it. We could debate this issue endlessly, and several insightful posts have already weighed the pros and cons, in addition to the NNA's position. I suspect the proposed legislation pinpointed notaries cos we're at the forefront of POAs, many of which are disputed down the line because some "friend," relative, etc. took advantage of an elderly person... or somebody said they did. Also because we do loan signings .... another fertile area to take financial advantage of someone ... in which case, I think LOs, who are the gatekeepers in these transactions, should also be brought into the loop.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 6/5/13 2:31am
Msg #472300

Re: "... there is no more room!"

I think it would be much more helpful for us to be encouraged to be aware of - and report - potential cases of elder abuse. Providing us with guidelines, a list of resources for reporting and even useful procedures could have a major impact. But threatening us with punitive measures for non-reporting is more likely to create unintended negative consequences than help relieve the problem - like avoiding any potential risky situation like the plague!

I guess it's time for those of us in California to contact our state representatives and send them some letters...

Reply by Buddy Young on 6/4/13 3:56pm
Msg #472217

How in the world could anyone prove that you suspected elder abuse?

Reply by Notarysigner on 6/4/13 3:59pm
Msg #472219

Buddy, I work with an attorney who practices Elder

abuse law, I will see her Thurs and ask how does she get her cases.

Reply by Buddy Young on 6/4/13 4:04pm
Msg #472221

Re: Buddy, I work with an attorney who practices Elder

What I was getting at was:

If you did a signing and didn't suspect elder abuse and later on someone said it was. How could you be prosecuted? You didn't suspect it so how are they going to go after you? They can't.

Reply by Notarysigner on 6/4/13 5:37pm
Msg #472237

Buddy, It's called a deposition!

O.K. They call you into court to testify. They ask you questions. But before that, there is a deposition where they ask you the same questions.
So a year has past, you don't remember (because you don't have a set policy of how to deal with any particular situation) you answer differently. Blam, you don't know what the heck you're talking about! Case dismissed.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 6/4/13 4:45pm
Msg #472230

Yes, I got it - and, at first blush, I mostly agree with their position (shock!) on this issue to oppose the proposed bill as it stands. Unfortunately, I think they're right that it could just make it more difficult for people to find a notary.

Here's a portion of the actual proposed language:

"Any notary public who, in connection with providing
notary services, has observed or has knowledge of suspected
financial abuse of an elder or dependent adult shall report the
known or suspected instance of financial abuse"

As jba/fl indicated, sometimes we're with a person for not much more than a few minutes, which isn't enough time to make a realistic determination about what we might observe or suspect. With the proposed substantial fines, why would anyone want to take the risk for the few dollars of income that would be provided. Worse yet, seniors are the ones most likely to need someone mobile to bring notary services to them, so it would potentially create more problems than it would solve.

However, amending notary law to "require a Notary to be satisfied that a document signer demonstrates awareness and a willingness to sign before performing the notarization" may not be much better, depending on how it is worded. We should certainly be encouraged to do so, and I agree that it is the ethical thing to do (and what I always attempt to do in practice). But if the law is worded in such a way that we are forced to make a clear cut determination about a person's awareness (and willingness), that could potentially be just as problematic. We're not social workers and we often only spend moments with a person. Seems like this could be just setting us to be held accountable for something outside the scope of our function and for which we are likely to be ill equipped to judge.

This is one arena where I do give props to the NNA for at least bringing this to our attention.

*********************************
Here is the full text of their email:

"AB 477 is proposing to require California Notaries to be mandated reporters of actual or suspected financial abuse of an elder or dependent adult.

If AB 477 is enacted, you値l be required to report when you suspect that a senior citizen or dependent adult is being financially abused. If you fail to do so, you値l be subject to a civil penalty of $1,000-$5,000.

We believe you would want to do the right thing and alert authorities when a senior citizen or dependent adult is being abused during a notarial act. However, AB 477 is the wrong approach. Instead, the NNA supports strengthening California痴 Notary laws to require a Notary to be satisfied that a document signer demonstrates awareness and a willingness to sign before performing the notarization.
These commonsense protections would make notarizations safer for everyone. We urged Assembly-member Chau to include our proposed reforms in AB 477, but the Assembly passed the bill without them.

Instead of protecting our eldest and most vulnerable citizens, AB 477 will make it harder for them to obtain Notary services.

On June 11, the Senate Human Services Committee will meet at 1:30 p.m. to consider AB 477. We are asking you to write your state senator and the Senate Human Services Committee at 916-327-9478 (fax) to let them know that you are opposed to AB 477. Tell your senator and the committee that you believe all Californians should demonstrate to a Notary that they are aware of and willing to sign the documents they present for notarization.

Sincerely,


William A. Anderson,
Vice President,
Best Practices and Legislative Affairs"

************************
Here are some of the live links included in the email:

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/13-14/bill/asm/ab_0451-0500/ab_477_bill_20130506_amended_asm_v97.htm

http://findyourrep.legislature.ca.gov/

Reply by Notarysigner on 6/4/13 5:31pm
Msg #472235

Thank you JanetK I had all that but feared if I presented it

.....it would be dismissed as irrelevant. Personally, I'm straddled this issue because why should have to pass a bill to protect our seniors (hell I'm one) from our kids. Are we becoming THAT stupid?

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 6/4/13 8:25pm
Msg #472271

JD .... its not stupidity ....

it's dementia, Alzheimers, failing mental accuity, etc., that sets up even the sharpest senior for financial abuse by lowlifes... yes, even by their kids.

I had a signing once with a worker at a care home that had alot of long-retired UC Davis professors. She described one as some supergenius PhD chemist/biophysicist/nuclear engineer/leader in his field/whatever/ etc. who had no idea he was still even on this planet nor anything else. She said it was frightening to see him now .... so, clearly, anybody could take him in a minute if they had a mind to and could get away with it.

Reply by CJ on 6/4/13 5:38pm
Msg #472238

I think instead of threatening notaries, there would be encouragement to call if we suspected elder abuse. We go into all kinds of homes and see all kinds of things. There was one case that bothered me. An old woman: her ankles were so thick she could hardly walk. She was refinancing and taking cash out. She was telling me a lot about her precarious financial situation and how she could not afford to live in her home. I asked (conversationally) why she didn't move in with her kids. She had some reason, I can't remember. I asked (conversationally) what she was going to do with the cash out and she said her son was going to invest it to help pay off her mortgage. He lived in Australia, far, far away from her. I made sure to point out on the TIL how much the total payments were going to be, and she just sighed and said she trusted her son. I did NOT trust her son. I wished I could have called someone, but I did not want to be responsible for sabotaging the loan and then getting in trouble for that. I also thought she would be saved with a reverse mortgage, but, of course, I could not say anything about that either. She signed and I didn't stop her, but I "knew" she was going to lose her house and have to move in with her kids anyway. I was upset about the whole situation.

I remember another situation. Again, and elderly woman, and I was instructed to get the docs signed and then drive her to the bank to get the check. She had younger family members in the house. When she got in my car, (out of earshot of her family) she changed and said how upset she was, and how she did not trust her family. She said she could not afford this loan and didn't know what to do. Her husband had always handled the money (he passed away) and she was very ignorant about money. But she said that someone on the internet had said she won a contest, and they were going to come by and give her 4 million dollars, after she sends them $3,000. I got the police on the phone and had them tell her that was illegal and it was a scam. She couldn't believe it - they sounded so nice on the phone, and they PROMISED to give her the money. She wound up not signing anything, but she was a sitting duck, and her family was totally taking advantage of her.

Who could I call about these sorts of things?

Reply by SharonMN on 6/5/13 11:58am
Msg #472328

I can see this being useful in cases where we *refuse* to notarize because of competency or duress issues. Instead of just walking away, the notary would report it and then maybe the person would get help instead of the abuser shopping around until they find a notary that will stamp the POA or deed or whatever anyway.

I don't think the notary is being asked to determine whether or not a senior or dependent adult is being abused, just to file a report *if* they suspect abuse (as certain other parties such as teachers must already do).

Reply by BrendaTx on 6/7/13 5:32pm
Msg #472577

Suggested form letter to help you act today against AB 477

In my observation, common "Government Think" logic is that once a group or person is identified as an "expert" at doing a certain thing, AND has any kind of certification all kinds of things that even remotely related to their certifications get delegated to them.

If this law passes, it makes the lawmakers look good to be able to say that they have now fixed elder abuse. However, they WILL want to do what is good for their constituents and their next chances at election.

Californians, do a Change.org petition that outlines the problems with this law. Use the form letter below to set it up and check the options that will make it go to every lawmaker in CA when a person signs it. Get it signed by every California citizen that you know.

Also, make a form letter that outlines the problems and how it will affect elders and notaries in a negative way. (See my suggestion below.)

Share it with every single Californian that you know - it does not have to be just notaries. Fax Senate Human Services Committee at 916-327-9478 (fax)

ALSO, find out who all is on that committee and send them copies of the letter via personal fax or email. Don't just stop at the committee fax #.

You still have four days to get your point across.

################################################

TO: HONORABLE MEMBERS OF THE SENATE HUMAN SERVICES COMMITTEE

FROM: YOUR NAME AND ADDRESS IN CALIFORNIA, PLUS YOUR FAX/EMAIL.

SUBJECT: VOTE NO ON AB 477! IT WILL MAKE NOTARY SERVICES DIFFICULT FOR ELDERS TO OBTAIN

Dear Sir or Madam:

The National Notary Association is to be commended for alerting California notaries and citizens about this AB 477. I fully support their statements in an email to California notaries dated ________.

I am vehemently opposed to AB 477. If you read the following comments, you will see that they are right. AB 477 MUST NOT PASS.

**************************************************
Quoted from email to me from the NNA:

"AB 477 is proposing to require California Notaries to be mandated reporters of actual or suspected financial abuse of an elder or dependent adult.

If AB 477 is enacted, you値l be required to report when you suspect that a senior citizen or dependent adult is being financially abused. If you fail to do so, you値l be subject to a civil penalty of $1,000-$5,000.

We believe you would want to do the right thing and alert authorities when a senior citizen or dependent adult is being abused during a notarial act. However, AB 477 is the wrong approach. Instead, the NNA supports strengthening California痴 Notary laws to require a Notary to be satisfied that a document signer demonstrates awareness and a willingness to sign before performing the notarization.

These commonsense protections would make notarizations safer for everyone. We urged Assembly-member Chau to include our proposed reforms in AB 477, but the Assembly passed the bill without them.

Instead of protecting our eldest and most vulnerable citizens, AB 477 will make it harder for them to obtain Notary services."


**************************************************
I can't help but wonder if the xyz inadvertently created a big ol' rolling stone of a monster with their inferences that notaries are the last lines of defense against ID and mortgage fraud AND, because they hold such an important position, they must be educated and tested. Now that they are educated and certified, California notaries are a good place to drop off many gatekeeper tasks that are only slightly related.

Sign up for Scout alerts: http://scout.sunlightfoundation.com/ Be watchful on laws with the words related to notaries.

Disclaimer - make sure I have not made an error before you use this form letter. I did it quickly as I feel a sense of urgency about this for my fellow American notaries and the Ca. elder population. This approach worked recently in Texas against bills that were not good for Texas notaries or citizens. Good luck!

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 6/4/13 5:39pm
Msg #472239

The funny thing about this is that it was brought up here at NotRot months ago:

Msg #458526


My opinion then remains that same as now... and not to thrilled this is gaining steam, as it is.

"Here's the HTML version that might be easier to read: http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/13-14/bill/asm/ab_0451-0500/ab_477_bill_20130219_introduced.html

Very interesting idea turning notaries into mandated reporters. I'm not sure how far that's going to get. On the surface it sounds like a noble idea... but when you get in to it deeper, that could start getting ugly. I think it might also give some notaries the idea that they have the right to delve further in to the business of a person than they probably should.

I mean, right now, we're told that the contents of the documents are not our concern. We are not allowed to ask or certify representative capacity, etc. They want us to be more hands off... third party witnesses to a signature.

But making us mandated reporters? That's scary. Only because I know a little bit about what it means to be a mandated reporter. Sometimes, it can do more harm than good. Don't get me wrong... the mandated reporting law is there for a reason, but it can get out of control. I've seen the disaster it can cause.

Personally, if I suspect illegal activity or abuse I already report it anyway. With this bill, we'd be required to report it to APS within 2 days or face at least $1,000 fine (and up to $5,000 or more plus lots of other actions).

I dunno... I don't like it. We're regulated enough, and adding the threat of being a mandated reporter for Elder Abuse too? Mandated reporters are NOT anonymous.

ON the upside... being a legal mandated reporter protects you from being sued as long as you made a report in good faith. However... as I said before, that gets messy.

It can get even MORE messy because, as notaries... if we suspect coercion in a notarial situation, we can notate it in our journals, but we may not actually end up completing a notarial act. We may turn them away. That can get dicey if you are turning them away, but collecting information because you think you might have to send in a report.

Ugh.... there are good intentions here, but I'm not sure I like this. It's just one more thing to add to our duties and one more thing that we could get fined over. And it would certainly mean some interesting training."

Reply by jba/fl on 6/4/13 6:29pm
Msg #472246

"Mandated reporters are NOT anonymous."

That alone is enough to get people to turn the other way. What if a neighbor and you are wrong - bad/ill will in the home area is not good and invites retaliation in some manner.

Case in point: In FL I can report you for your abuse to your kids. I am guaranteed anonymity during the investigation. But, if I see that you chain your dog outside w/no water in direct sun for 6 days while you are on vacation and report this, they will be told who reported them. It is easier to let the dog loose and then call to have it picked up for being a nuisance. Of course, we then have to catch the animal first and hold it until animal control comes, so we run the risk also of the owner coming home while animal control is in transit. I can also tell you this - animals will cause more problems between neighbors when reported than kids.

Reply by MW/VA on 6/4/13 6:40pm
Msg #472250

I know how XYZ loves tabloid-journalism. I sounds like that

the proposed law is designed to compel people to stand up against financial abuse of the elderly. It's a big problem nationally. I know a notary who was called to testify in a Reverse Mortgage situation. She said later that she never heard any more about it.
There are those situations where people are coerced to sign over assets by family members, too. I've heard of it, "if you don't sign this I won't take care of you"--kind of thing. Horrible.
Sad truth is that most of us know that if we don't have any money no one is interested in taking care of us.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 6/4/13 6:47pm
Msg #472253

There is an interesting phrase in the bill: "within the scope of his or her employment or professional practice". Many notaries are not employees, at least, not while they are acting as notaries. It is debatable whether notaries are professionals. So perhaps it would be held the law does not apply to notaries who are independent contractors.

Reply by parkerc/ME on 6/4/13 6:47pm
Msg #472254

In this case...so glad I live in Maine! n/m

Reply by VT_Syrup on 6/4/13 7:11pm
Msg #472261

I'm already in this situation, with one exception...

Since I volunteer as an EMT, I'm already a mandatory reporter of elder abuse in Vermont. But if I report in good faith, I'm immune from lawsuits or criminal prosecution. I didn't notice any provision like that in the California bill.