Posted by NVLSlady/VA on 6/21/13 2:59pm
Msg #474250

Are you "covered" when you tell borrowers to Sign

AS THEIR NAMES APPEAR?

I feel like so much time is lost (like the 75 min Quicken -not! loan I had last night) trying to "coach" borrowers to sign as I "want them to."

I let borrowers hear (speaker) call with SS what they require - after we waited on hold forever. They came to same conclusion as me: "He doesn't get it." I had to take control and say "please sign as name appears, and add "as J.F.K" if your signature doesn't include your M.I.

I hate having to get "hung" up on handwriting. I've read some of your posts about this issue; so I'm not sure I want to open this "can" but your experience in handling is appreciated!

Have a good weekend

Reply by Frances Kany on 6/21/13 4:53pm
Msg #474263

I tell them at the beginning to "sign as the name is typed" otherwise their loan WILL NOT CLOSE. This usually does it for me.

Reply by Luckydog on 6/21/13 4:59pm
Msg #474264

Several title companies had told me that even though their "cursive written out name" may not match their "abbreviated" or "sloppy" signatures on their DL, you as the notary are witnessing the signatures, and are legal for this transaction. Signatures have to be legible and signed exactly as stated. A lot of the times title or lender may start a package out with a middle initial, then it gets dropped by one party or another, does not matter. However they see it, they sign it in cursive and legible. Never had a problem. Most of the time on your notary instructions will be clearly stated, and I highlight it before the closing so they know this is their instructions, not mine and avoid that unpleasant issue. If you do not follow instructions, you may have to resign, and they doc your pay. If their is an AKA, Signature name Affidavit, I have them sign on one of the lines their DL version, makes them happy.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 6/21/13 6:26pm
Msg #474282

"Signatures have to be legible and signed exactly as stated."

I can only remember once or twice actually seeing it stated on closing instructions that the signature has to be legible. I never tell them it has to be legible (except for those few times it's been requested). I nearly always do what the others have indicated: if I can't tell if it's under-signed or over-signed, no problem. If it clearly looks, for example, like just a first initial instead of a first name (where the full first name is on the docs) - AND if they tell me that the signature includes just their first initial instead of their full first name (I ask) - I will request they sign with the whole thing, however they decide to work that out. "Exactly as stated", yes, but I leave that interpretation up to them, unless to me it clearly looks like something else and I'm concerned the lender will feel the same way.

I deal with lots of borrowers who are immigrants from many different parts of the world, where the concept of what a signature is can be very different. If I told them it needs to be "legible and in cursive", they'd consider that something other than their "signature". Two different things, in other words.

It's never made sense to me to force someone to sign what's arguably among the largest transactions of their lives in a manner different than the way they've been signing their names their entire adult life. Unfortunately, lenders don't give a hoot what I think...

Reply by ananotary on 6/21/13 5:10pm
Msg #474270

The only time I worry about "signing as name appears" is if their signature is legible. If their signature is not legible, I ask if what they are signing reflects the name printed. If yes, I move on and have never, never, never in almost 10 years had a SINGLE problem. A persons signature is THEIRS.

Reply by SharonMN on 6/21/13 5:31pm
Msg #474272

ananotary, I agree. I have never had a problem, either, and I've been a signing agent for 6 or 7 years now. At the beginning, when I hand them the first doc to sign, I say "and you're going to sign as printed, so Mary E. Jones." Occasionally someone will forget to put the middle intial in once or twice and I have to remind them, but this might add an extra 1 minute to the signing, tops.

I never make them change their signature unless it clearly and neatly says something OTHER than what's printed - if it is M..(big squiggle) and she says it says "Mary E. Jones" that's good enough for me.

For those of you that have problems with this, what seems to be the sticking point? Do you just have dumber or more ornery/stubborn borrowers in your area, or are you doing something differently that causes issues?

Reply by Robert522TX on 6/21/13 5:37pm
Msg #474274

I usually print out a piece of paper with their name the way the documents are printed, initials, and signing date and put it right in their line of sight to refer to.
Most of the time, if it's a couple one of them watches the other one to make sure they do it right, which helps.

Reply by snowflake/PA on 6/21/13 5:50pm
Msg #474277

Had a stickler signing seller docs. Advised she needed to sign exactly as name is typed. She insisted on her first name, middle initial only (docs had full middle name) and last name. I reminded her several times about her signature and she refused to use her middle name. I feel I cannot MAKE her sign a particular way - but did mention to her that because of how she is signing there may have to be a redraw.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 6/21/13 8:29pm
Msg #474295

I've posted this several times, so forgive the repetition. I had a borrower do that to me once a long time ago, so at the table, I wrote out a statement saying something to the effect that I had advised her that she needed to sign her full name as typed, but that she refused, even after I mentioned to her that it could result in a redraw of her docs. I then had her approve it and sign it.

Sure enough, I was back there the next day and we had to re-sign everything. I didn't get any resistance from her that time! BTW, her signature was very neat, legible cursive handwriting, but she refused to include her middle initial. The second time, it was no problem... (Went pretty quickly, too, and I received a full fee for the second trip. Don't remember if she had to pay a redraw fee, but it wouldn't surprise me.)

Reply by NVLSlady/VA on 6/21/13 8:34pm
Msg #474297

Now THAT'S what I call "covered." May need to incorporate.

Was also thinking I could bring along a poniard to keep under the table . . .

Reply by NVLSlady/VA on 6/21/13 8:36pm
Msg #474298

But threatening borrowers is not my "game." n/m

Reply by NVLSlady/VA on 6/21/13 8:30pm
Msg #474296

The borrower I had last night was not so much "ornery" as just frustrated that he couldn't use his Legal signature on "legal" documents. But, as stated I just told him that if his legal (normal) signature did not include his M.I., he'd need to "add." But WHERE?

I find the issue comes up with both sexes (men a little harder to crack).

I know how frustrating it is for me to change my regular signature - to include my full name - as I am used to signing with First, M.I. & Last. Frequently I have to catch myself when notarizing. I can't wait to renew in a couple of months and hopefully to strike the middle name off the record!

Thanks for all comments (enlightening to say the least)

Reply by ToniK on 6/21/13 9:05pm
Msg #474300

I had one lady who didnt know how to spell her middle name because she said she has never used it.

Me on the other hand, my signature is just 6 letters. Ive always had it as initials and I dang gone sure aint changing it. Unless Im going to shorten it to initials. lol

Reply by NVLSlady/VA on 6/21/13 9:15pm
Msg #474301

With common names like mine, I'd NEVER sign legal docs without my middle name/initial on them.
I went to H.S. with a girl with same name as mine; our different middle initials did little (especially when she turned up "in the family way")!

When I'm shopping, seeing doctor, etc., it's like scrolls of us in the same neighborhood. Scary!

Like all the "Maria's" in Latin communities. Borrower told me the other day, "We latinos don't trust nobody." He was an atty and his wife a former school teacher (who quizzed me on my Espanol)

Reply by ToniK on 6/22/13 4:58am
Msg #474316

Lol but yet they are always trusting of their own and get taken advantage of.

Reply by Notarysigner on 6/21/13 8:59pm
Msg #474299

You are forgetting the sign aff they signed and the

oath you gave them, their customary signature?

I tell them what I need to I.D. THEM and tell/show them what the hiring party wants. If they choose not to do it, they suffer the consequences.

Now if you're worried about not getting paid if you don't "make them" sign the way the hiring party instructed, you need to stop doing NSA work.

Reply by NVLSlady/VA on 6/21/13 9:21pm
Msg #474302

No I'm not forgetting the Affd

which in this case, only added to the problem. It included an aka, which was how he customarily goes by: His middle name

So I asked him, "Is this signature (the unreadable one) your given or "known as" middle name?"
Then I basically had him "make up" a signature for his aka!

Reply by Susan Fischer on 6/21/13 10:01pm
Msg #474305

Great topic. Reminds me of years ago, another discussion

here, and three powerful Name lessons for me: Messages 159172 and 160403.

Reply by jba/fl on 6/21/13 11:29pm
Msg #474312

Very interesting reading - really enjoyed it. Linking

for ease now as those who love history and the humans involved will want to read it easily also.
Msg #159172
Msg #160403

I also want to point out that at the end of the second thread was Msg #160895 , which contains my stance, one that has worked for me and that I have on occasion defended with expected results. I also only sign 4 letters, semi legible, and will never agree to sign anything differently no matter who is urging me while giving me their OPINION on how I should be signing documents. IMHO, when someone wants to tell me how to do something of this nature on legal documents, they are moving towards practicing UPL, which we are not to do.

Reply by NVLSlady/VA on 6/22/13 7:53am
Msg #474318

UPL: Completely Agree

In my limited legal understanding, this is exactly the kind of thing that makes contracts voidable (unenforceable)

Thanks for the Links!!

Reply by LKT/CA on 6/22/13 9:35am
Msg #474324

My experience is: When I see their IDs, and the signature is legible, then I politely inform them of the TC's instructions. If the signature is illegible, I don't bother. It's useless because in whatever form their name is printed, their scribbly signature represents that. My own personal signature is illegible - and I would not sign legibly. Someone tried to forge my signature two years ago and were unsuccessful because my illegible signature was unforge-able. They didn't even come close.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 6/22/13 11:30am
Msg #474332

My signature is First name Middle Initial and Last name. I would never ever sign any other way. If a document doesn't have my middle initial on it I still sign with my middle initial otherwise it is not my legal (normal) signature.
My husband's signature, although he signs first name, middle initial last name, it looks like it is just his initials plus his last name. But that is the way he has always signed, it is his normal signature, if he signed where it is legible then it wouldn't be his signature.
No-one is going to tell either one of us how to sign our names.

Reply by Yoli/CA on 6/22/13 12:42pm
Msg #474336

Exactly, Sylvia!

Unless instructed otherwise, when I make that confirmation call, I request copy of borrowers ID to include with signed package. If Title or lender were to question signature, I can say please refer to signature on ID. To date, that issue has not popped up.

A couple of weeks ago, I signed a couple where the wife always ONLY signs first initial & last name. Driver's license and all docs showed name as first name, middle name and last name. I did ask her about it and she said "working in a bank and signing all day, years ago she migrated her signature to what she now uses." No issues.

I relay to borrowers what instructions say about signing as name appears. What they do with that information is up to them.