Posted by Marian_in_CA on 6/22/13 1:52pm
Msg #474340
Be specific folks...
Got a call this morning from a lady frantic because they had a letter notarized the other day that was being rejected by a local prison. Why? Well, not because the notary did anything wrong, per se... but because in the OPTIONAL information on the attached acknowledgement, she just wrote "letter" rather than "Letter of consent..." as was titled on the document.
Nitpicky? Yes... and not even required by state law, but the prison said that for all they know, they could have had any old "letter" notarized and then attached the loose certificate to this other letter. They said they weren't rejecting the notarization... but the document itself because they had no way of solidly knowing the letter and the attachment actually went together and, as such it was a security issue. they needed to be sure that the "letter of consent for..." was the document notarized...not just a "letter".
Ridiculous? You bet... but it's another reason why, if you use loose forms, you need to be careful and to be sure there is no possible way that if it becomes detached, that it could be confused with any other document. Better to be overly cautious than not. Make sure there is a clear, unmistakeable reference from one page to the other.
In this case, they had traveled 500 miles and didn't have many options because the prison was standing firm, and the notary they used (who was 500 miles away) was not available.
| Reply by Alz on 6/22/13 3:08pm
Msg #474343
Great post and well stated...
I'm glad you mention this, as the public seem to think that I am being nosey when I ask about the letter that needs to be notarized. It is not necessary for me to know the content, but I do need enough information to describe the document being notarized beside "Letter".
| Reply by Bob_Chicago on 6/22/13 3:21pm
Msg #474345
Susggestion. When notarizing something like this to be used
in a prison, you might want to suggest that the signer writes some kind of unique number
(EG : 2YP3UT) on the instrument. The NP can then place that same # on the unofficial section of the loose ack
| Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 6/22/13 3:39pm
Msg #474347
How 'bout those Blackhawks!?
I'm rootin' for you today, Bob (since my Sharks didn't do so good in the playoffs).
But back to OP: Great post/good story! Actually, I don't think it's ridiculous or nitpicky at all. I've often thought that any loose certificate can be attached to anything anybody wants to attach it to .... unless we include on the LC exactly what it's supposed to be attached to.
I type or write in the Optional area: the name/title/description of the document; number of pages of document (no numerals, spell it out, cos anybody can screw around with numerals); date of document, if no date I put "not dated"). Guess I'm like the prison people; I don't trust anybody either ... esp. with a LC. I'm sure other notroters have other suggestions on good stuff to include in the optional area .... like the one Chicago Bob had.
| Reply by hodgy on 6/22/13 6:56pm
Msg #474353
Re: How 'bout those Blackhawks!?
Go Bruins!!
| Reply by Susan Fischer on 6/22/13 5:01pm
Msg #474348
Great reminder. Another reason I like Oregon's common sense
about loose acks: Must be physically attached (stapled), and provide for 'stamp-sharing' - stamping the two so the edges can be matched up. This may have saved the day in the instant case.
That said, we can't go wrong by identifying the attached doc as fully as possible - as a matter of course.
| Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 6/22/13 5:26pm
Msg #474349
Interesting, Susan ......
CA SOS forbids stamping on more than one page. Go figure .....
| Reply by Susan Fischer on 6/22/13 7:18pm
Msg #474355
Yep, love our common sense, including the notation in
our journal of loose acks/descriptions.
Harry's Journal makes it so easy to document...
| Reply by Alz on 6/22/13 7:18pm
Msg #474356
Re: Interesting, Susan ......
I hear that XYZ promotes this idea that the CA SOS forbids. Now that is interesting especially since they teach notary classes in CA.
| Reply by Susan Fischer on 6/22/13 7:31pm
Msg #474358
Sad about CA's legislature's rules; before ink, there were
impressions, and before embossers, there were waxes and seals.
Impossible to figure CA's dismissal of loose ack's long history of documenting security.
| Reply by LKT/CA on 6/22/13 7:16pm
Msg #474354
Easy fix - invest in an embosser
Put pages together and emboss.....each doc will have half of an impression. Where is this place that there's no notary withing 500 miles? I'll move there and be the ONLY notary to notarize for that territory...CHA-CHING!!
| Reply by Marian_in_CA on 6/22/13 9:00pm
Msg #474361
Re: Easy fix - invest in an embosser
Lisa, the person whose signature was notarized was 500 miles away, up in northern CA. That person gave these people a letter of consent for her children to visit an individual at a local prison down here. They brought the children down, but the prison wouldn't let them in because they didn't approve the letter.
It's an 8 hour drive each way... I offered to drive up and there and do it myself so they could make the visit tomorrow morning.  They didn't go for that. Not sure how it turned out. There was nothing I could do down here for them.
As for using the half-seal embosser idea... we're not allowed to do that. In the 2013 newsletter, they made it pretty clear. On page 2 under "Improper Notarial Acts" it states, "A notary public may not stamp with the official seal any pages other than the page with a completed notarial certificate."
| Reply by Marian_in_CA on 6/22/13 9:10pm
Msg #474363
Re: Easy fix - invest in an embosser
Let me add to that though. I know of several notaries who have a second embosser... one that isn't an official seal. It's one they designed themselves and had made so it's unique. They will use *that* to emboss both pages together in addition to other security methods.
| Reply by LKT/CA on 6/23/13 12:53am
Msg #474373
Re: Easy fix - invest in an embosser
The embosser does not officially complete the notarial cert - the inked stamp does. The embosser is an optional tool the notary is not obligated to own. I doubt the SOS would make a rule against something *not* required to complete a notarization. Where the newsletter says, "A notary public may not stamp a document with the official seal then sign, or sign and date the document without completing or attaching a notarial certificate.....A notary public may not stamp with the official seal any pages other than the page with a completed notarial certificate" means that some docs have either a non-compliant cert, or just a line for the notary to sign, print their name and then stamp. And some customers believe (and ask that) we can just stamp the inked seal on the page and that's good enough. *That's* what that's referring to - not the use of an embosser.
Regarding the 500 miles....I was referring to the notary performing the notarization.....had they embossed the two papers together, the prison probably would not have rejected the notarization because of just the word "letter" on the optional info area of the cert.
| Reply by Marian_in_CA on 6/23/13 12:59am
Msg #474375
Re: Easy fix - invest in an embosser
had the notary just written "Letter of consent..." as it matched the title of the document, it wouldn't have been rejected either. The issue was that the notary just wrote "letter" and that's it, leaving a question... in the prison's view, about the authenticity of the signature on the letter.
| Reply by LKT/CA on 6/23/13 2:42am
Msg #474378
Re: Easy fix - invest in an embosser
Yes, I understood that from your OP.
| Reply by Belinda/CA on 6/23/13 12:07am
Msg #474370
What might such an unique embossed say? n/m
| Reply by Belinda/CA on 6/23/13 12:19am
Msg #474371
Embosser. n/m
| Reply by Marian_in_CA on 6/23/13 1:07am
Msg #474376
Re: What might such an unique embossed say?
The ones I've seen have all been different. One is a large version of the notary's handwritten initials. Another is the person's name/monogram. Other have images, either stock or custom drawn. They're all different. The point being that they are totally unique and one of a kind...but not identical to their actual notary seal.
I've been thinking of doing this, but just thinking about it.
I think the point is that we should each develop our own individual security measures and style. That way, if one of our notarizations is ever questioned, it might be really easy to authenticate it
| Reply by LKT/CA on 6/23/13 12:40am
Msg #474372
Re: Easy fix - invest in an embosser
I understood your OP....the prison rejected the doc because the optional info on the notarial cert just said "letter" which, without specifying the letter in question, could be attached to anything (according to the prison clerk). I said to use the embosser to emboss the letter and notarial cert so each would have half of the embosser impression and there would be no doubt as to what "letter" the notarial cert belonged to.
I read page 2 of the 2013 newsletter regarding Improper Notarial Acts. The embosser is not the official seal - the inked stamp is the official seal. Just because it has official information doesn't mean it's the official seal. As you know, to emboss something is the "raise or carve" something.....which is exactly what it does. You don't use the word "stamp" to described the use of an embosser. The stamp - any stamp - does not raise or carve anything. It displays an inked image.
This is not a play on words (semantics). Embossers raise or carve the image. A stamp displays an inked image. Page 2 is not referring to an embosser, it is referring to the inked image. And where it states "A notary public may not stamp with the official seal any pages other than the page with a completed notarial certificate." that's referring to fanning the pages and using the inked stamp across several pages.
An embosser does not stamp, it embosses (raises or carves)....and it is not the official seal. Page 2 is not referring to the embosser.
| Reply by Marian_in_CA on 6/23/13 12:56am
Msg #474374
the embosser can be the official seal, though...
all one needs to do is ink it and it's official. You still have to have the Sec of State's permission to have one made, and if you ink it, you don't need any other seal if everything is properly discernible.
All you need to make it "official" is an inker like this:
http://www.stamp-connection.com/products/551/Embosser-Impression-Seal-Inker
Really, this is no different than having a traditional rubber stamp and using an ink pad. Or, for that matter, any of the other seals made, minus the inking mechanisms. If you need the Sec of State's permission to have it manufactured, it's an official seal.
I understood what you meant, though... a lot of people have used the embosser on both pages (half and half or otherwise) for this very reason. The problem is that because it *is* an official seal, minus the ink, and anyone could ink it afterward, I think it's a little dicey. I wouldn't do it now, not after what was printed in the newsletter.
| Reply by LKT/CA on 6/23/13 2:41am
Msg #474377
Re: the embosser can be the official seal, though...
<<<all one needs to do is ink it and it's official.>>>
That doesn't change the definition of an embosser. According to page 7 of the handbook, you can use an embosser *in addition to* the rubber seal. Nowhere in the handbook does it state that a notary may add ink to a raised impression (embossed seal) as the official/primary stamp on an ack or jurat.
<<<If you need the Sec of State's permission to have it manufactured, it's an official seal. >>>
That's ancillary, just as use of an embosser is ancillary. In the context of the newsletter, the *official* seal is the rubber seal....not the embosser.
| Reply by JeffC/CA on 6/23/13 10:36am
Msg #474387
Re: the embosser can be the official seal, though...
Here is the code. Note that the seal can be "embossed" and "reproduces under photographic methods..."
§ 8207. Seal
A notary public shall provide and keep an official seal, which shall clearly show, when
embossed, stamped, impressed or affixed to a document, the name of the notary, the State Seal,
the words “Notary Public,” and the name of the county wherein the bond and oath of office
are filed, and the date the notary public’s commission expires. The seal of every notary public
commissioned on or after January 1, 1992, shall contain the sequential identification number
assigned to the notary and the sequential identification number assigned to the manufacturer
or vendor. The notary public shall authenticate with the official seal all official acts.
government code 29
A notary public shall not use the official notarial seal except for the purpose of carrying out
the duties and responsibilities as set forth in this chapter. A notary public shall not use the title
“notary public” except for the purpose of rendering notarial service.
The seal of every notary public shall be affixed by a seal press or stamp that will print or
emboss a seal which legibly reproduces under photographic methods the required elements
of the seal. The seal may be circular not over two inches in diameter, or may be a rectangular
form of not more than one inch in width by two and one-half inches in length, with a serrated
or milled edged border, and shall contain the information required by this section.
The seal shall be kept in a locked and secured area, under the direct and exclusive control of the
notary. Failure to secure the seal shall be cause for the Secretary of State to take administrative
action against the commission held by the notary public pursuant to Section 8214.1.
The official seal of a notary public is the exclusive property of that notary public, and shall
not be surrendered to an employer upon the termination of employment, whether or not the
employer paid for the seal, or to any other person. The notary, or his or her representative,
shall destroy or deface the seal upon termination, resignation, or revocation of the notary’s
commission.
This section shall become operative on January 1, 1992.
| Reply by LKT/CA on 6/23/13 1:10pm
Msg #474415
Okay, let's be practical and realistic here
Embossers are not cheap, they are twice the price of a rubber seal, and not required. On top of that, you'd have to spend more money for a separate round ink pad to make it photographically reproducible. Many notaries are not spending twice the price for a tool that is not required and then more money on top of that. A while back, a lady called and asked if I had an embosser. She said she called ten notaries before me and none had an embosser. Her husband's doc required that it be embossed (in addition to the rubber seal).
The SOS knows that practically, and realistically, notaries primarily use the rubber seal and in the context of their writings in the newsletter, they are addressing the rubber seal, not the embosser.
| Reply by SharonMN on 6/24/13 10:12am
Msg #474497
Re: Okay, let's be practical and realistic here
I don't understand how people can reject a properly completed notarization and ask for more than what is required by law. I don't think it is the notary's job to second-guess state requirements and make their own extra-special process and tools because they think the state mandated process isn't secure enough. And if notaries didn't do that, people wouldn't be calling around looking for embossers, ribbons, gold seals and other non-required items.
However, I try to put the notarization on the same page as the signature whenever possible. In cases like this, you could even notarize on the BACK of the letter. But I understand people don't want to write out the lengthy California ack language (mine in MN is fortunately much shorter).
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