Posted by Rita Adu on 6/4/13 1:30pm
Msg #472183

Dementia

Just confirmed a signing for Friday. The wife answered & advised me that I will need to be patient b/c her husband has dementia. I told her that I am responsible for ensuraing that her husband understands what he's signing or I won't be able to notarize. I'm already anticipating complications. Any suggestions would be helpful.

Reply by KODI/CA on 6/4/13 1:35pm
Msg #472185

I would consider asking her to get a POA to herself, or another relative that would have his best interest first. If he is not capable of obtaining a POA then you would probably not be able to notarize.

Reply by Exclusive Mobile Notary on 6/4/13 4:30pm
Msg #472228

Person place time and purpose...

"Hi... What's your name? Do you happen to know who this person is standing next to me? Would you happen to know what today's date is? And lastly, do you know where you are?"

Those are the standard questions I ask when I'm at a facility and unsure of the persons mental status. Those are also the same questions i, as a firefighter,use when dealing with patients on medical calls. It's a medical standard and very effective in determining if I'm going to proceed with a POA or AD notarization. If all 4 questions are answered correctly, I proceed and note in my journal A&O x4, meaning alert and oriented on all 4 questions asked.

Reply by jba/fl on 6/4/13 4:58pm
Msg #472232

I would only get A&O x3 if I didn't

have my phone to look at the date. Unfair question IMHO

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 6/5/13 7:00am
Msg #472302

I've developed my own protocol over the years, due to personal experience with relatives - but more to do with how family members of less-than-lucid signers have attempted to scam me. I carry on a back-and-forth conversation with the signer and during the conversation, I have them explain to me what they are signing and why they want it. Even if verbal communication is difficult, head-nodding and eye contact give me a lot of information about their engagement.

The reason I point this out is that the A&O standards are SO widely used & known, that they are the very things 'coached'. Given enough GNW in situations like these, you'll eventually see that happen.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 6/6/13 1:03pm
Msg #472435

"I have them explain to me what they are signing and why they want it."

That's what I'm looking for, too. If they can manage to verbalize that, not only does it show awareness, but willingness. I met with a 90+ year old woman not too long ago. She was able to give me one of the most concise, accurate descriptions of whatever document it was that I'd heard in a long while. There was no doubt she knew what she was doing. If they can't give you any idea or they say they don't know, that pretty much also tells you what you need to know.

Reply by jba/fl on 6/4/13 1:46pm
Msg #472186

Oh, Lord - give me patience.

The wife said he has dementia - not that he is slow on the uptake. Knowing this, how can you possibly notarize?

Reply by pat/WA on 6/4/13 1:47pm
Msg #472187

It is too late for her to get a POA as he doesn't understand what he is signing.

Reply by Luckydog on 6/4/13 1:54pm
Msg #472190

She admitted he has dementia, you cannot legally notarize his signature at this point. She needs to go to a judge and declare him incompetent, and the judge legally transfer his legal rights to her or someone else through the courts. Good luck, will take awhile.

Reply by Art_PA on 6/4/13 2:05pm
Msg #472195

Turn the order back

Reply by Matt_VA on 6/4/13 2:34pm
Msg #472199

Turn it back!

Reply by Notarysigner on 6/4/13 3:36pm
Msg #472210

I would NOT do it! n/m

Reply by ladyknc on 6/4/13 4:01pm
Msg #472220

My experience

What some call "dementia" is simply just taken a little longer to get what they are reading or what is being said to them. Others call dementia - "they do not have a clue and would not remember anything they did today within an hour".

My litmus test in these cases is to ask the cognizance spouse "will he remember what he is signing tomorrow". If she says no - then I would definitely turn it back.
If she thinks he would then perhaps you might go. Depends on mileage, complication of the loan, etc.
If you do, engage him in conversation and ask him questions about does he know what he is signing and ask him to tell you what. Talk to him a few more minutes about random things -- then ask him question again---- Think you would get a good feel at that point.

Only reason that I would even suggest this is that many times seniors "need" to refinance in order to be able to afford their medications, their light bills etc. However you cannot put yourself in jeopardy legally in so doing. One time I did a signing for an elderly man and his "new" wife of a few years. He did have some "slow" issues in comprehension but he did know what he was dong. So we signed. There was equity -- nice sum--- coming back to him. Well lo and behold "his" adult children questioned whether or not he should have signed etc etc. Being called by title or loan co -- do not remember (scary) I was questioned as to how I determined he was competent to sign. Never heard anymore. Whew!!!

Guess the adult children thought their step-mom was going to "enjoy" the equity.

Reply by C. Rivera Chicago Notary Services on 6/4/13 4:25pm
Msg #472225

Call your hiring party and ask if they knew about husbands

condition. Chances are that they didn't if SS, but if TC then LO should have asked wife for POA. Not legal advice but would've been my suggestion.

That way its not the nsa's job to determine whether or not to go forward.

If the LO knew about the husbands condition, but allowed for the signing to take place, it could cost the BO and the lender big time.

Just my .02

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 6/4/13 4:25pm
Msg #472226

Mention that word to the lender (not the L/O, but the mgmt at the actual Lender's) or the title agent, and they'll pull the loan in a heartbeat.

If you don't have the heart, you can make them the 'bad' guy - but think about this, if THEY would pull it, why wouldn't you? If they find out after-the-fact, and there is grief over it, who do YOU think they're going to hold responsible?

Reply by Rita Adu on 6/4/13 5:09pm
Msg #472233

All good points. It is a very good Title Company that hired me. I contacted them and asked that they note in the file what the wife told me. I told them that I was willing to go to the signing (they pay full fee for showing up) and speak with the borrower. I'll make my decision at that time.

As some have indicated, there are several degrees to this disease. Some people can fade "in and out". Some people are completely "out" most of the time. The only problem will be if they're like my elderly cousin who can talk a good game and make the entire story up. If you don't know her, you would never know that she is making everything up. This should be interesting.

Reply by NVLSlady/VA on 6/4/13 5:35pm
Msg #472236

Degrees of Dementia

I'll admit, this thread is confusing to me. Only a professional (or in this case a legitimate source, the spouse) can make this determination. I agree that due to the degrees of any mental incapacity, it would be best not to sign . . . But don't you need a medical certificate or something??

Half the people signing hardly have a clue about some of the docs! They aren't written for average readers. I spent some time in the correspondence (writing) dept of a large F.I. and we were told to use "simpler," more basic words because people in general didn't understand words like "average daily balance," "remittance" (vs. payment) and other wordy professional phrases that made our outgoing letters look "good." The language just wasn't geared towards today's ( ) audience. We were even encouraged not to write phrases like, "this is to inform you of your account status." (Just say, we are writing because . . . )

I'm just saying, how does one determine on what level a signer is functioning on that would disqualify him or her from signing? What about TBI for vets? Is their brain disorder proof of incompetence?

Last night I had a somewhat protective spouse that wouldn't let me speak to her veteran husband over the phone; she said that she handled all the paperwork. When I met with them, I could tell she was more savvy about the docs but she was very respectful and not demeaning to him at all. And he was not "lame-brained" - just noticeably quieter and subdued.

Now, my writer side would cast him as a wounded neurotic vet with an overprotective spouse . . . (never mind). Point is, they were BOTH "fading in and out" because 8 pm was their Bedtime!

Point is, I don't trust anyone who uses the term "demented," as that is used all too loosely (and is unfortunately attributed to a great percentage of today's society as evidenced by insane behavior).

Reply by NVLSlady/VA on 6/4/13 11:12pm
Msg #472290

And How is YOUR Mental health today?

Not wanting to confuse "dementia" with slow wit or some diminishing intellectual capacity/"brain fog."

Dictionary definition: severe impairment or loss of intellectual capacity and personality integration, due to the loss of or damage to neurons in the brain. BUT it also adds,

dementia — n
a state of serious emotional and mental deterioration, of organic or functional origin

As to responsibility, Jodi Arias, Bonita Jacks (DC mother who lived with the corpses of her children) and Ariel Castro are CLEARLY in the latter category - and WILL be held responsible for their actions with lengthy incarcerations, no matter how Sick they are.

So back to my question, is there some Evidence of Capacity form, breath analyzer, whatever to make this an official "diagnosis" for the notary at the time of signing?

Reply by JPH13/MO on 6/4/13 11:40pm
Msg #472292

Re: Degrees of Dementia - some personal knowledge for you

My Mom was diagnosed with dementia and lasted 10 years before succumbing to this horrible disease - ultimately the body shuts down, but that happens long after the person's mind goes. She was at an awesome care facility rated at/near the top for the Midwest, and I was told by many of the staff that the best time to catch someone with dementia at their 'most alert' is in the morning. By evening they are at their worst, so if you are ever in this situation see if your signing can be scheduled before noon.

My Mom was able to recognize me before noon up until the last year and a half, although her ability to converse was poor and like speaking to a small child. She came up with her own words for things, so unless you knew that blue meant she wanted an Oreo cookie she would seem far from lucid, etc. The last 5 years she sometimes didn't recognize me if I visited after 1 pm, so I always went earlier.

They are able to remember things from morning to morning, until the end stages, but afternoon on is another story.

Reply by jba/fl on 6/5/13 9:07am
Msg #472308

Two further comments, although unasked for but food for

thought.

1. You have made up your mind. TC will pay whether a sign or not and you just want the money so you will make the trip out of curiosity....sideshow of the day. (This should be interesting.)

2. We have talked about elder abuse. I think this borders on this as it can also be seen as taking advantage of another while not fully cognizant of the facts. Yes, they need this, but the consequences can be worse than a short wait to get all ducks in a row.

Sound harsh? Sorry, but life does have harsh moments. It is how they are dealt with that determines the measure of the deed.

Reply by LKT/CA on 6/4/13 10:19pm
Msg #472282

Disagree with Renee

Signing agent gathers signature...OP is in Maryland so not sure of MD law, but a CA notary witnesses signatures and if the signer is clear and oriented to time/place/self/purpose/planet ***during the notarizations*** then it's a go...had several lawyers tell me that.

Of course, any notary in any state needs to be comfortable in notarizing for a signer with dementia. If the notary wishes to inform the lender of the signer's condition, that's fine....but the Notary is seeing docs and END of the process so how can the Notary be held responsible?

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 6/5/13 6:18am
Msg #472301

Re: Disagree with Renee

Lisa, you asked "... but the Notary is seeing docs {at the} END of the process so how can the Notary be held responsible?"

Beginning, middle, end - regardless, you would be the person face-to-face, witnessing the execution of a loan, of a person whose spouse has warned you has dementia. Myself, I assume the spouse would be far more qualified to make that determination than I am. It is most likely you are the only person in this process who would be face-to-face, and quite possible the spouse never felt it necessary to tell anyone else. While this borrower may NOT have been diagnosed with dementia, there is a cognitive problem sufficient enough for the spouse to claim dementia.

As to others who note that very often, those with dementia or Alzheimers can appear quite lucid at times, and often get worse as the day goes by - while I agree that is true, it wouldn't matter to me once someone has told me the person has dementia. I also won't even go to do GNW for anyone in a Memory Care Facility - nobody is a resident in Memory Care if they don't have to be, therefore the determination has been made and who am I to dispute it.

I've lived long enough to know not to ever assume people are above/beyond bringing a lawsuit on for just about anything, and I'm not about to invite trouble into my life.

When I hear that word "dementia", I hold a 'practice' defense with an imaginary judge to see IF I could defend myself:

Judge: "The spouse claims she advised you that her husband suffered from dementia, is that true?"
Me: "Yes." (This concludes my imaginary defense, because I have no defense to this.)

Reply by BrotherOwner on 6/5/13 1:58am
Msg #472299

Re: My .02

"The wife answered & advised me that I will need to be patient b/c her husband has dementia."

I am not a Doctor or a Lawyer. The wife's statement, I'm sure is not made lightly, and was probably based on HER information from HIS doctor. She has my sympathy, but needs legal guidance. The lender and title cos. need to be advised of her statement, and I would not even think of conducting a signing. You don't know any back history/family situation, and you have no need to be involved, or part of a bad /sad situation.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 6/5/13 8:21am
Msg #472306

My mother also had dementia

To the day she died she never forgot who I was or who my husband was - but she had no idea where she was, what day it was, and she did things that were, quite frankly, bizarre. But I can tell you that anyone coming in for a GNW appointment would be warmly welcomed and engaged in conversation for 15-20 minutes - quite lucid conversation....she could even still sign her own name. Problem is, after about 10-15 minutes she'd begin to fade - I knew the signs and as did anyone who knew her - she really had absolutely no idea what she was doing or why. A notary would never be able to glean that in a short GNW appointment.

Based on my own personal experience with this disease (and education in the health care field, with certification in Dementia Care) I, personally, would not take this appointment. You already have information that this gentleman is mentally impaired - how do you know when he's "on" his game and when he's "off". It's possible if the lady never said anything at all you'd never know and you could truly testify, if necessary, that he was lucid and clear. However, should the issue come up, you also have to truly testify that yes, you were advised in advance that he had dementia.

I hope you let us know how this went for you. And Good Luck.