Posted by Linda_in_MI on 6/13/13 9:30pm
Msg #473283

Here we go again with webcam notarizations

A link to this press release was included in a email I got as a result of an alert I have set up in my gmail. According to their website, "online notarizations are available in 50 states", and this process is also available in 60 countries. Now before you ring my bells and rattle my chains, I know that the states where this is NOT legal far outweigh the state(s) where notarization via webcam as described by this company are legal. So as the cliche goes, don't shoot, I'm only the messenger. Just wanted to let everyone know this is by no means a dead subject. This emphasizes the importance of being aware of what your state allows and doesn't allow.

Just because this company says it is OK--and it's on the internet--doesn't make it true. Or legal.

http://www.onlineprnews.com/news/389894-1371131151-settleware-expands-global-enotarizations-with-notarycam-notary-public-services-online.html

Reply by ToniK on 6/13/13 9:58pm
Msg #473285

Being a Va notary and oh how I love when this topic arises (just debated this very thing on linkedin last week). So here is my response:

According to VA notary law, a notary MUST first be commissioned as an electronic notary (yes arent automatically electronic notaries, we must apply for commission).

Page 7 of our handbook "Personal appearance is required for all electronic notary acts. At this time, video conferencing, as
a remote notary, is not available."

Page 8 of our handbook: Only traditional notaries public who have also been registered as electronic notaries public may
perform electronic notarial acts within the Commonwealth of Virginia.

Page 9: Effective July 1, 2012, the Commonwealth of Virginia will be the first state to authorize a
principal signer to be in a remote location and have a document notarized electronically. Remote
electronic notarization incorporates strict federal standards for determining the identity of the
signer and requires the notary to keep a record of the video conference for each notarial act,
which is not required in paper notarizations. Accordingly, protections against fraud with this
method are much stronger than that afforded by the current paper process. It is important to
remember that the Commonwealth of Virginia already use video conferencing in courts of law,
the standards for which this law expressly crossreferences.

Remote notarization requires a very high threshold for identity assurance. Not only MUST there
be a video and audio feed, the notary public will be REQUIRED to assure the identity of the
signer by one of the following three options:
1) Personal knowledge. This is already allowed under Virginia law. Simply put, if
the notary knows the signer, that will satisfy this requirement.
2) Reliance on prior inperson
identity proofing by a third party such as an
employer, a law firm, or a bank. Otherwise known as antecedent proofing, this
security standard relies upon a prior trust relationship having been created
between the signer and a third party. This standard is gaining wide application in
electronic commerce.
3) The signer has a digital certificate that is authenticated either by (i) biometrics or
(ii) a Personal Identity Verification (PIV) or PIVI
card issued in conformance
with strict government standards from the National Institute of Standards and
Technology. The use of PIV and PIVI
cards is becoming more prevalent in the
public and private sectors. This is as trustworthy and reliable a security standard
as can be found currently. The federal government uses this standard in issuing
identifications to federal employees and government contractors as well for
trusting the identity of emergency first responders.

The two way live teleconferencing capability must meet the following performance criteria for establishing personal appearance:
1) The persons communicating must simultaneously see and
speak to one another;
2) The signal transmission must be live, real time; and,
3) The signal transmission must be secure from interception through lawful means
by anyone other than the persons communicating.


Ive had two companies approach me on how to get other Va notaries involved and once I quoted the handbook, I never heard from them again.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 6/14/13 7:49am
Msg #473311

Webcam notarization: ToniK's "Reliance on prior inperson"

What a horrible law, regulation, or standard (whatever the _____ it is)! How is an ordinary electronic notary supposed to figure out what that means. Say John Doe has been thoroughly vetted by, for example, his employer, the FBI. How is the notary supposed to establish, via webcam, that John Doe has been vetted by the FBI? No useful guidance at all.

And the PIV and PIVI cards: say Susi Signer has a PIV card. What does the notary do to verify it. Can the notary just look at it on a web cam? Should the notary have established a PIV card reader at a remote location, with alarms on the locks reporting in to a 24/7 alarm company, and require Susi to use the secure card reader? Something in between? No useful guidance.

Reply by ToniK on 6/14/13 8:21am
Msg #473316

Actually VA notaries

Have an additional power..verification of fact. We are allowed to use public records and whatever else to verify this information is true. So if I wanted to use Lexis nexis or call the employer directly I am allowed to in my duties. However all this cost money. Lexis Nexis accounts aren't cheap. Time and resources are involved. Just my interpretation

Reply by VT_Syrup on 6/14/13 10:55am
Msg #473345

Re: Actually VA notaries

I understand you can verify that a certain public record states a certain fact, as a notarial act. Taking an acknowledgement or giving an oath by webcam is a different notarial act. Even if there was a public record saying John Q. Public is an employee of the Sewage Treatment Plant, Town of Podunk, State of New Jersey, how does that establish that the person appearing in the webcam is the same John Q. Public?

Reply by ToniK on 6/14/13 2:44pm
Msg #473396

Re: Actually VA notaries

That I have no idea. We dont have guidance on that. Thats why VA notaries are steering clear. I would only do these types for Govt and military. But Im not even commissioned as an E-notary.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 6/14/13 2:50pm
Msg #473399

Re: Actually VA notaries

That's how I read it, too, especially as lots of federal government and military business takes place in Virginia. If you have a situation where certain people are repeatedly needing the same types of documents to be notarized, and the high level of ID (and previous personal appearance, as noted) has been established between the signer and the notary, this could be a significant time (and money) saver for us taxpayers. I suspect this process wasn't intended for the average notary.

Reply by LKT/CA on 6/13/13 10:02pm
Msg #473289

I suppose the best we can do is forward the link to our respective SOSs/state regulatory agencies and appeal to them to contact these people with "cease and desist orders" since this company is claiming it is legal in 50 states. The CA SOS has a disclaimer on their site, but the average Joe (or JoAnn) doesn't see that info.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 6/14/13 7:42am
Msg #473309

webcam notarization legal in 50 states

I SUSPECT webcam notarizations ARE legal in 50 states. The Virginia law claims their electronic notaries can perform webcam notarizations for people anywhere. Currently several states, including my state, authorize their notaries to meet in person with people in other states and perform notarizations, provided the notarization has some connection to the state that commissioned the notary. For example, I can notarize deed while I'm in another state, provided the property described in the deed is in Vermont.

In the past states used to appoint commissioners of deeds, who would reside in a different state, and who would notarize documents for use in the commissioning state. So apparently, for more than a hundred years, this form of out-of-state notarization has been acceptable.

One difference with the new Virginia law is the notary is in Virginia, while the signer is anywhere. I don't know if this would make a difference. A second difference is that acknowledgement and oaths have traditionally been done in person. Other states might decide that a webcam oath or acknowledgement does not meet the other states definitions of what oaths and acknowledgements are, so the Virginia webcam ceremonies are meaningless.

Reply by FGX/NJ on 6/14/13 8:00am
Msg #473312

Re: webcam notarization legal in 50 states

From the ANA
http://members.usnotaries.net/news.asp?AssetID=855

Please note that a PDF printout of an E Notarization is a COPY and not an original.

Reply by MW/VA on 6/14/13 8:26am
Msg #473318

This whole subject makes my head hurt! If you read

Toni's post above, it is clear that VA notaries cannot just notarize docs for all states. These online cos. are operating illegally, IMO. I chose not to get involved in the Electronic Notary that is available in VA, because it is separate from Traditional Notary. Again, this was designed primarily for military & government use, IMO.

Reply by ToniK on 6/14/13 8:32am
Msg #473322

Exactly! Fed govt and military use

That's would I would be using it for if I became an electronic notary.

I already have my seal, I just never applied to get the commission yet. I don't see a need for it yet.

Reply by ToniK on 6/14/13 8:27am
Msg #473319

Re: webcam notarization legal in 50 states

Actually the signer still has to appear before va electronic notary prior to. I take this law to only work for government and military situations not for the general public. I would not do a webcam notarizations for someone say in California or Germany unless they appeared before me at some point or if they are govt or military personnel on TDY. But our law states mentions the type of equipment to use and so take it as a system used like in secured govt facilities or courthouses. I'm pretty sure that equipment is expensive.

Reply by LKT/CA on 6/14/13 8:13pm
Msg #473427

Re: webcam notarization legal in 50 states

<<<Other states might decide that a webcam oath or acknowledgement does not meet the other states definitions of what oaths and acknowledgements are, so the Virginia webcam ceremonies are meaningless.>>>

That's an excellent point. I believe many states will reject any notarization <webcam> not conducted "face-to-face".

Reply by Susan Fischer on 6/14/13 10:48am
Msg #473343

Still a no-go in Oregon. In person means person in front

of you - physically.

Oaths are routinely given and taken telephonically in court proceedings, which, is fine for court proceedings, but still a no-way for any Notarial act.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 6/14/13 11:05am
Msg #473352

Re: Still a no-go in Oregon. In person means person in front

The telephonic oaths I've heard of required that the person taking the oath appear in person before the notary, but the people listening to the testimony were at the other end of the phone line. Is it different in Oregon?

Reply by Susan Fischer on 6/14/13 12:33pm
Msg #473377

Re: Still a no-go in Oregon. In person means person in front

Can't say definitively, depends on the court and circumstances, I suspect. I know that basically, anything requiring a Notarial act must be in person.

Reply by FGX/NJ on 6/14/13 1:19pm
Msg #473386

Re: Still a no-go in Oregon. In person means person in front

Webcam notarizations are legal ONLY in Va.
Question is " Is a Va webcam notarization performed by a Va notary for a person in a different State
legal in that persons State?

TO REQUIRE ANY FEDERAL OR STATE COURT TO RECOGNIZE ANY NOTARIZATION MADE BY A NOTARY PUBLIC LICENSED BY A STATE OTHER THAN THE STATE WHERE THE COURT IS LOCATED WHEN SUCH NOTARIZATION OCCURS IN OR AFFECTS INTERSTATE COMMERCE

THURSDAY, MARCH 9, 2006

Above was a bill introduced in House of Representatives but never passed.

Legal counsel has indicated to the AAN that it is yet to be determined if a notarization will be valid if it is performed remotely by Virginia notary for a signer in a state that requires personal appearance. We are told that the courts will decide on its validity if the notarization is challenged.

Reply by Susan Fischer on 6/14/13 6:10pm
Msg #473413

Re: Still a no-go in Oregon. In person means person in front

Agree, interesting question of comity of jurisdiction.

I sure can't see Oregon dispensing with personal appearance, so I'd bet on a challenge from my state.

As for the "legal in all 50 states" thing, nope.