Posted by Marian_in_CA on 6/9/13 4:23am
Msg #472669

Rain on the CA notary parade, #374

So, a conversation on another forum made me want to point out this little tidbit for CA notaries who think it's okay to stamp and complete your notarial certificates and journal entries on loan packages after you've left the borrower in order to save time at the table. Nope... NOT OKAY.

Per the 2013 newsletter, on page 3, #1 under "Common Mistakes", second sentence reads:

"The person who has signed a document must be with you at the time you complete a jurat or certificate of acknowledgment."

Source: http://www.sos.ca.gov/business/notary/forms/notary-newsletter-2013.pdf


And, we know from the letter that the Sec of State sent to me last fall, which I've posted here several times, in part reads, "The notarial certificate and journal entry must be completed at the time the notarial act is completed."

Source: http://www.highdesertnotary.com/casosletter0912.pdf


Just a heads up, because I've actually seen several comments recently from notaries who say they like to save time by doing all that stuff later.

Reply by F2F/FL on 6/9/13 7:44am
Msg #472671

It's certainly true in FL.

We actually had this happen to us when my husband bought our home. The realtor who was also our landlady who sold the house to us didn't even blink an eye either.
I felt something was wrong at the signing and kept waiting for the notary to sign and stamp the doc's and it just never happened. I advised my husband of it also.
After the signing was completed I went home and called the notary and questioned her about when she was going to notarize our paperwork and she said to me that she did them when she got back to her office. So I researched it and made some phone calls and sent her a nice email stating that she was absolutely wrong about her practice and that she should really start signing and stamping at the table before (someone like me could have done) reports her. She did not know that I was also a notary until after the fact (act).
I never heard back from her either.
So yes always sign, date, and stamp at the table in front of the BO's, Buyers, GNW, etc.. You just may not know who your sitting in front of if they don't tell you that they were a notary public once.

Reply by Notarysigner on 6/9/13 11:29am
Msg #472684

Re: Yea and then they post they can do a signing in

30 mins or less. Like the time spend finishing up or preparing the Docs doesn't count. LOL

Reply by linda/ca on 6/9/13 9:05pm
Msg #472701

LOL! Good point notarysigner; important facts not mentioned. n/m

Reply by JJNotary/CA on 6/9/13 11:50am
Msg #472685

It seems apparent that one would stamp and sign at the table with the Borrower! I would think a Notary would want to do that, covering all bases. I was wondering, however, due to the
repetitive information in filling out the journal, is it possible to start filling it out at the table, and finish filling the journal out after the signing?

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 6/9/13 9:28pm
Msg #472703

" is it possible to start filling it out at the table, and finish filling the journal out after the signing? "

No, that's the point... given the two references above, it's clear that the Sec of State does not want notaries doing that. They are saying that the journal entry must be "completed" at the time the notarial certificate is completed. They also say that the notarial certificate must be completed with the signer present. You have to add both ideas together to get the full picture.

Reply by JJNotary/CA on 6/9/13 10:07pm
Msg #472712

Ok - thanks. While it does seem tedious; for the borrower, there is a fair amount we can fill out prior, and since I need to fill it out regardless - why not do it before hand. I suppose my fear was wasting journal space; were a signing to be canceled, or rescheduled (I had one reschedule 3 times, and then the loan just never went through) However - this was just once, and I do like the checklist point.

Reply by Notarysigner on 6/10/13 9:56am
Msg #472752

Re: Question then..if you"parcially" fill out

your certificate and journal entry, what do if someone ask you to notarize a Doc for them BEFORE you get to the appointment?

Reply by Notarysigner on 6/10/13 9:58am
Msg #472753

Re:meant "partially" fill out n/m

Reply by JJNotary/CA on 6/10/13 11:49am
Msg #472763

Re: Re:meant "partially" fill out

lol! I just caught that. Yes... guess I shouldn't browse the forums after a long day!

Reply by JJNotary/CA on 6/10/13 11:47am
Msg #472762

Re: Question then..if you"parcially" fill out

Oh, I didn't mean it that way. I meant, I could start the journal entries - i.e. location, name of signer, name of document, date on document - that type of thing. I would still wait to fill out time and date and time, as these could change. I wouldn't fill out anything in the packet until I was at the table. And honestly, I do complete my portion of the packets at the table. After the borrower(s) sign, I go through the packet a second time to make sure we didn't miss an initial, date, or sig. and fill out my portion at that time.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 6/9/13 2:26pm
Msg #472690

Hmmm...

I thought this was SOP ...? However, I'll admit that when I first started as a loan signer, the late, great (to this Forum, at least, since she's apparently among those banned from posting here) Kelly Robertson wrote that she would occasionally finish up notarizations at the end of the day. Sounded good to me at the time. But the SOS has since clarified its position on the issue.

However, I'll also admit I have no idea how/why/where this dictum originated (unless the SOS feared notaries would forget to stamp and sign at some point if they didn't get it all done at once?) In the first place, most borrowers have no idea why *we* are there ... as opposed to someone from the lender or title showing up. Second, most borrowers ... heck, most people ... have no idea what a notary does. (In fact some notaries don't either, but I digress). So, stamping and signing in front of them is a completely empty excercise if it is for their benefit .... and who else's benefit would it be for? They'd have absolutely no idea what you're doing ... except taking up time at their kitchen table when all they want is you outta there so they can go eat. In fact, they're probably wondering why you can't do all "that paperwork" later...?
And finally, if you're doing GNW, of course, you'd do all this in front of the signer since they're taking the document with them.

The point is: what does it really matter? What's the point? If someone asked a borrower, did the notary complete such and such? 99% of them would have no idea. Frankly, it's probably directed at TCs, who are legendary for notarizing at the end of the day or next day .... and likely by a notary who wasn't even present at the signing. (That's if the certificates are actually completed by a real live notary instead of the office receptionist.) Anyway, I guarantee few TC notaries give a hoot about this rule. I've signed 3 loans at CA TCs, and there was certainly no stamping and signing going on in my presence ...

In any case, the operative word here is "completed." If one wants to "save time" at the table cos you're in a hurry to get to the next job (or you don't want to take up borrower time), then "precomplete" as much as possible, including journal entries, dates, etc. Or if you want to bore the poor borrowers to death with the tedium of dating, completing, stamping and signing umpteen notarizations, not to mention stamping or stapling loose certificates cos all the jurats and some of the acks are CA noncompliant, along with stamping or writing "see CA compliant certificate attached" etc. then go for it. Just do it in front of them.

Reply by Alz on 6/9/13 7:06pm
Msg #472695

Saving time, energy, and other frustrations...

This is one of many reasons why my business policy states that documents are received in a timely manner, i.e. at least two hours prior to the appointment time. Thus, giving me ample time to print, review, and prepare said documents.

I totally get that not everyone does this or is able to; however, if you do not lay the ground rules with your vendors, clients, or whatever you wish to call them, then they will make you pull you hair out every single time. In fact, I have good friend in the business that goes down this path every week and unfortunately, my feedback and comments appear to be ignored.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 6/9/13 9:42pm
Msg #472707

Re: Saving time, energy, and other frustrations...

Same here... I require 4 hours or additional fees apply. I have a lot of reasons for the time window. Oddly enough, the vast majority of companies I work for manage to get their documents to me 12-24 hours in advance, if not 2-3 days in advance. I rarely get same day docs.... but when I do, it's usually a good 7-8 hours prior and the result of somebody forgetting to send them the day before, not because they're not ready.

I don't play the waiting game. I've always said that late docs are an exception, not the norm.

Reply by ananotary on 6/9/13 8:40pm
Msg #472699

Re: Hmmm...

A hard task sometimes when you are given three inches of a coffee table to complete the closing on. LOL

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 6/9/13 9:37pm
Msg #472704

Re: Hmmm...

I agree, I think the key wording is "completed" here... I regularly start journal entries before an appointment with loan packages. Since I have the documents, I run through and flag all of the notarized pages and write each title down in a separate journal entry. It serves as a checklist, too, at the table to be sure I don't miss anything.

I don't see that harm in starting a journal entry ahead of time... or even pre-filling out notarial certificates. You just can't sign/seal them outside the presence of the signer. I'm not sure it saves a ton of time...I still do everything in front of them to complete it. Now, whether they pay attention or not? That's not really my problem. I just need to be able to say that I completed it all in their presence.

BTW, the original post that prompted this one, the person wrote:

"When I refinanced my house this year the first notary came out and did not have her stamp with her and informed me she does all her stamping at home and the State of California she said does not require she stamp in front of me. She had her commission to prove she was a active notary.
Needless to say I did not sign with her and called the title company told them and they sent a 2nd Notary who was somewhat better but not much. She informed me I could not read my docs during the signing that I had my own set to read after since I had a 3 day right to cancel. I finally signed so I did not lose my lock rate but also reported to her to title company. "

Reply by linda/ca on 6/9/13 9:37pm
Msg #472705

GOLDGIRL: Very good points made, however, notarizations @

the table mostly based on one of those suppositions that the notary might have some unforeseen occurrence like an accident and also the fact that the SOS is not aware of what's involved in the NSA portion of the loan; hence one of the reasons of the ruling Marion quotes.

Best case scenario would be to have every Jurat/Acknowledgement filled out in advance and already noted in journal and just stamp at the table. Problem is "best case Scenario" is not always the norm, therefore, coupled with an excessive amount of docs to be notarized, some take the "understandable" filling out later approach.

MHO

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 6/9/13 9:48pm
Msg #472709

Re: GOLDGIRL: Very good points made, however, notarizations @

Understandable...oh yes. Who wants to sit there and watch a notary fill out 15 journal entries?

Thing is... this is one of the many reasons why we should NOT be accepting cheap fees. The amount of work the Sec of State requires of us for notarizations in CA means we need to be charging accordingly. By law we're allowed to charge up to $10 per signature notarized. If we have a loan package with a married couple and 10 notarizations... legally, we can charge up to $200 JUST for the notarization fees. That doesn't count the printing, doc prep and signing agent portion of the job. So, why some notaries discount their work to $100 or less baffles my mind.

Reply by 101livescan on 6/9/13 10:01pm
Msg #472711

Re: GOLDGIRL: Very good points made, however, notarizations @

Indeed, another reason to avoid these low fee, slow paying companies who think we should work for $50 to $100 on these packages.

Mind boggling what SSs try to and/or do get away with. Then there are the fax backs on your dime, because their client doesn't have a toll free fax line and they are on the east coast.

Reply by linda/ca on 6/10/13 12:32am
Msg #472724

Yes, Marian, one of the best reasons not to go cheap in Cali

"By law we're allowed to charge up to $10 per signature notarized. If we have a loan package with a married couple and 10 notarizations... legally, we can charge up to $200 JUST for the notarization fees."

Companies can save a lot of money when there are many signatures to be notarized, if we price per bundle/package of loan docs! The usual up to $10 per signature gives us room for some serious negotiating for a higher fee as the SOS is, in essence, helping us prove our worth!