Posted by Eric Andrist on 3/5/13 2:01pm
Msg #459310

1st call to go back on my 1st signing

So I just got a call that the wife of the signer needs to sign some more papers. The gal I spoke to made it sound like it was half my fault and half escrow's fault. I knew I had not missed a single signature so I pressed her on what was wrong. She said that Escrow had not put the wife's name on a number of the important documents...there was no signature line for her.

So I asked how that was my fault if there was no signature line. She hemmed and hawed and said it didn't matter, but if I could go back, they'd need her to date it as of the original signing.

What?! I told her that was backdating and that's against the law. She says, "I know, but..."

I said, "But nothing, I won't backdate." I told her I was still confused as to how it was my fault (she even said it was 50/50). So he put me on with her supervisor who said it wasn't my fault, but asked that I go back and do it. I said sure, but that I was asked to backdate and that's against the law. She huffed, "OK, I'll have escrow handle it."

So I don't know what they're doing now. Was I wrong?

Reply by pat/WA on 3/5/13 2:09pm
Msg #459312

I never concern myself with the date the signer uses. Only the date that I use is in my notary block.

Reply by John Tennant on 3/5/13 2:22pm
Msg #459319

If the documents do not require notarizing then all they have to do is email them to the borrowers, have them sign them, and send them back. Not your problem.

If they do require notarizing you should get paid for another trip and the date would be the date that you notarize the documents.

JMHO

Reply by Eric Andrist on 3/5/13 2:26pm
Msg #459321

Yeah, it was for docs that I notarized the first time.

Escrow failed to put the wife's name on them anywhere at all. So they want to add her on, have me go to her to sign it, but use the date from the first signing.

Reply by John Tennant on 3/5/13 2:29pm
Msg #459322

No can do. That is backdating. Interesting to see "how escrow" is going to do it. I would save those emails in case they are needed in the future.

Reply by janCA on 3/5/13 2:31pm
Msg #459323

Get it in writing and send it on to the CA SOS. They ALL know it's wrong and illegal. It's even illegal to ask you to do this.

Reply by Pro Mobile Notary on 3/5/13 2:50pm
Msg #459325

I find it curious that people object to the practice of being asked to backdate and yet OP refuses to post the name of the entity that made the request. Why?

If you want to put a stop to being asked to do illegal stuff start to post the name of those asking you to violate the law. That would be a logical good start. They will hear about it through the grapevine.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 3/5/13 2:58pm
Msg #459327

Because ....

Clearly, this is a touchy issue. For an entity to ask a notary to backdate is illegal. So unless the conversation were recorded or there were a paper trail via e-mails attesting to this illegal request, any sensible notary would be hesitant to actually come right out and say: "So and so asked me to backdate." The offending SS would only deny such an exchange, and then the notary is on the hook for proof, which they could not produce, and could possibly be on the hook for alot more, such as retribution.

Besides, backdating is CA's dirty little secret. Some veteran notaries have no problem with this; in fact, the owner of one Southern California SS is legendary for dashing to signings throughout the state to backdate for her clients when she can't get the notary to do it.

Reply by NJDiva on 3/5/13 3:24pm
Msg #459328

Though it wasn't necessarily your FAULT...

it would have been beneficial for you and everyone else involved to have taken the initiative to have consulted with someone about the spouse (NBS) not being on the crucial NBS doc's if you're in a "spousal state".

Many times companies drop the ball and the information doesn't get passed down and these types of things happen. In fact they happen quite frequently. There have been numerous times where I called the company because of the discrepancy and they've either cancelled the closing or just said to add.

I'm not sure what your circumstance is or was. There are so many variables. I'm just sayin...You certainly would have been a hero if it was addressed at the time of the closing. Now instead of being a go-to notary, it may very well have destroyed a business relationship.

I am not attacking or questioning the OP. But in case there are newbies on here, know the crucial doc's and the laws of your state.

Reply by Philip Johnson on 3/5/13 3:31pm
Msg #459329

Could have been a hero?

Most likely you would have been a zero, without specific instructions otherwise I follow the docs as presented. Somebody up the chain is getting paid the big wages to get it right, and I assume they did their job.

Reply by NJDiva on 3/5/13 3:45pm
Msg #459334

lol....doesn't hurt to be pro-active-Could have been a hero?

I don't assume anything. My goal is to get it closed (ethically, legally and timely). Sure I'd get another fee for that return, cuz after all, it wasn't my fault, but it causes issues for everyone involved (title, SS, financial institution and borrower.) These are all players we need to stay in business.

If they look good (and competent) we stay in business... Just my humble opinion...

Reply by NJDiva on 3/5/13 3:46pm
Msg #459335

PS Philip...lol this is listed in your bio...

" I'm also well equipped to handle any situation that may arise."

Reply by Notarysigner on 3/5/13 4:50pm
Msg #459343

I had this happen on provident loan..SS

begged me, told me they would loose important client, when I told them in was a misdemeanor to do so they told me yes, but yada yada...I still refused. Later they told me they fixed it "in house" and never called me again.
I wonder if I would be working more if I did what they said instead of following the law....and yes I kept all the emails for proof.
I can tell you it happens a lot and newbies I can tell you if you don't kiss their butts you will work for many, many different SS BUT not very long. IMO

Reply by Susan Fischer on 3/5/13 7:15pm
Msg #459383

Totally agree - assume makes an... When you get good at

making the impossible look easy, well, that's why the Go-To-People get paid the big bucks.

Teamwork; because we are an integral part of the *team* that's doing the deal - it's all, after all, about happy Borrowers.

Reply by Susan Fischer on 3/5/13 6:52pm
Msg #459374

Good points, Diva. This is where long experience comes in

handy as a shirt on a pocket.

When the ~docs (process)~ conflicts with the ~situation~ it's a little red flag that says - "before we go further, we need to get a clarification..." That one short email/cell call has saved a lot of the bacon that Diva spoke of.

The rewards for effective communications and problem-solving approaches are great.

Also, her point about the basics in your state is the obvious starting point, right after the Notarial Commission.

There are more pearls to be plucked from the many wise old oysters here. Best of luck to you.

Reply by Christyl/CA on 3/5/13 3:47pm
Msg #459336

Were these new docs that were not present in the original package? Were these in the original package that were not marked to be signed. In California a non borrowering applicant who is vested on title is required to sign a specific set of documents. The Deed of Trust, Notice of Right to Cancel, Truth in Lending and Signature affidavits. It is not always clearly marked as it should be, but should be known by loan signing agent. If you don’t see the name it should be questioned. If you are marketing your self for Loan Packages, you should know the laws of the state. I can also see how this falls on escrow and they should have caught this, but as an expierienced signing agent, I would call and question this. Maybe that is how they said 50/50. As far as escrow handling it, they will probably have to redraw.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 3/5/13 3:53pm
Msg #459338

I agree. Unless the vesting was shown as "sole and separate", I would be making a phone call. But I'm seeing more and more packages lately where the vesting on page one of the DOT isn't complete. In those cases, you can check the closing instructions (if there are any) to see if the full vesting is documented there, which it usually is - but not always.

These are the kinds of lessons experience teaches you. But good on the OP for knowing not to backdate!

Reply by NJDiva on 3/5/13 3:55pm
Msg #459339

EXACTLY my point! Thanks Christy! n/m

Reply by Christyl/CA on 3/5/13 4:00pm
Msg #459340

Re: EXACTLY my point! Thanks Christy!

This is a good lesson learned on his first signing. Unfortunately it will probably be his last with that company.

Reply by MW/VA on 3/5/13 4:58pm
Msg #459344

I agree with that, Christyl & Cheryl. These are things

we learn & that's what makes us professionals. I'm sure he'll take that into acct. for future signings. BTW, I also have the NBS sign all title docs, whether there is a designated place for them to sign or not.

Reply by Pamela/CA on 3/5/13 5:12pm
Msg #459348

Re: I agree with that, Christyl & Cheryl. These are things

After 10 yrs in the field and over 12K signings - here in San Francisco Bay Area - when I do my intro email contact with BO (lists the date, time, location of signing, Lender, and NAME(s) of BO's all from the job order) Signers will sometimes ask why the spouse is not listed - which gives me a heads up before I even get the docs - this partly helps to avoid Eric's situation - mostly though the docs tell ALL - Eric will learn he must review that package before leaving the office.

Reply by Luckydog on 3/5/13 6:50pm
Msg #459372

Re: I agree with that, Christyl & Cheryl. These are things

It seems because this was your 1st signing, you lacked experience in determining if the spouse needs to sign the TIL, Mortgage, RTC and some title docs. Every state may be different, but in FL, if it is their primary residence, and they are married, the spouse MUST sign these docs. If no line is provided, you add one in. Things you really need to know, and comes with experience. Hopefully you learned this lesson. It is really tit for tat who is to blame, but you should have caught and questioned this.

Reply by CopperheadVA on 3/5/13 8:23pm
Msg #459404

Re: I agree with that, Christyl & Cheryl. These are things

In my state of VA, sometimes the docs from title company will come through with husband and wife names, but lender docs come through with only one name. That clues me in that there is a non-obligated spouse on title to the property. I then send friendly email to TC pointing out the discrepancy and asking "Is this correct?" even though I know it's NOT correct! Then a flurry of emails, and corrected lender docs are forthcoming, with spouse name now appearing on DOT/Mortage, TIL, and RTC. Sometimes I even get a thank you.

Reply by Julio Bustos on 3/5/13 9:35pm
Msg #459412

Re: I agree with that, Christyl & Cheryl. These are things

After reading all the replies completely and now that you know that your lack of experience made the signing to go wrong I will add up that you should think that you are a contractor and have to make always the customer happy. In this case escrow and signing company are the client so you have to deliver the best work possible and if you make a mistake you have to take responsibility and fix "YOUR" lack of experience mistakes sometimes at your own cost that way you keep the customer happy and avoid any type of drama so you could continue having more business, more business, more revenue coming in to your business.

I simply would have gone back with Borrowers, fix the signing, do it quick, send it back to escrow, write an email confirming that you learned from the mistake and continue receiving business, creating a good relationship with clients-escrow-signing companies, learning and gaining the experience needed to be a everyday call mobile Notary professional.

Now am pretty sure you won't receive a call (hard to get CALLED from signings companies) from this company anymore, you will wait a bit more to get the experience needed and with so many competition out there you will wait longer to build up checks from notary signings. And that is just another lesson you will need to learn the hard way.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 3/6/13 1:16am
Msg #459431

Whaaaaat???

Catching up on this thread has my head spinning. Julio, I'm not really sure what you're suggesting, but I hope it isn't that the OP follow the request to back-date a notarized doc!

And as for the comments about how to react to various situations when there is an issue about vesting, let me say for the umpteenth time... This is a VERY state specific issue. What is a correct response in one state may be absolutely wrong in another state. The OP is from CA which is NOT a state where the spouse has to sign certain docs regardless of what the vesting says. We are a community property state, not a "spousal" state. (BTW, I know just enough to understand they are not the same thing, but I'm no expert...)

The verbiage on the vesting, however, does matter here and can make a big difference, as in most states. In my experience, if the property was vested as one person's "Sole and Separate" property, it's perfectly fine for only one person to sign everything and for the spouse to not have to sign anything (unless there is some sort of Deed included in the package to be signed by the non-borrowing spouse, creating the "Sole and Separate" situation). I see that situation frequently. However, if the vesting says anything else, or if it doesn't specify, that's a good time to be on the phone to your client to clarify what is really needed.

Having said all that, though, I HAVE run into a couple of situations where the (out of state) client wanted a non-vested, non-borrowing spouse to sign certain docs anyway. It doesn't make sense to me, but it's not my call to make.

Reply by Eric Andrist on 3/6/13 1:29am
Msg #459433

Re: Whaaaaat???

Wow...a lot of information here, some of which contradicts what we were taught in class.

I got out my textbook and it clearly says, "MOST lenders do not all any document to be altered in any manner whatsoever. Only the right to cancel dates may be changed and initialled by borrowers.

I am not a learned lender or escrow person, so if they don't get their own documents right, I can't understand why it would be my job to fix it for them. Sure, I can see from the point of view of trying to look good for the person that hired you.

Basically, I got from class that we are not to be the judge of what is included in the documents, only to get them signed and dated in the proper spots, and point out any glaring mistakes.

I will NEVER backdate a document. Again from my manual: "Backdating documents...It is illegal. California has increased the penalty for altering an Acknowledgment. It is considered a forgery and a felony, and the notary's seal will have to be surrendered to the court convicting the notary of a felony. The notary's commission willl be revoked permanently, and possible jail time and fines may be levied by the court. Since the notary is no longer bondable, it will be difficult to do just about any job that will require a background check, revealing the felony conviction."

As for naming the company that requested it, everything went well except this and they were very nice. They are a 4 start rated company. If they don't want me back for not wanting to break the law, then I don't need to work for them.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 3/6/13 3:55am
Msg #459441

Right! Trust your judgment & be careful what you listen to.

Posters here all mean well, but sometimes see things through their own lens and occasionally someone will "speak" with an authority that is misplaced or undeserved (although most of the posters in this thread are knowledgeable, well seasoned pros.)

The tough part of this business is that there are few things that are always right. What one company insists on, another prohibits. And in the middle of all of that are our individual state notary laws. Those are the most absolute part of our jobs, but even there, as you can tell if you read here for any period of time, there are gray areas, with room for interpretation. But backdating isn't one of them. That's one of the very few things that is ALWAYS wrong, no exceptions, and I'd venture to say that is so in every state. Same thing for personal appearance.

You seem to be starting off on the right foot, Eric. Hang in there - and stick to your guns!

Reply by MW/VA on 3/6/13 7:43am
Msg #459455

I agree, Janet. He's off to a good start by understanding

the limits of his knowledge & coming here on the forum to get some answers. As we all know "experience is the best teacher". Agree with some of what you were taught about not altering docs, but we're sometimes in a position to catch an error on our end. As you become more familiar with the process, you will learn to spot certain things.
We've heard stories of notaries that have gone out on signings without all the docs, for instance, like the HUD or TIL. No point in going if you don't have everything.

Reply by Eric Andrist on 3/6/13 8:47am
Msg #459471

Re: I agree, Janet. He's off to a good start by understanding

I'm sure that's very true, and look forward to becoming more familiar with all the docs as it can only go to make the process easier and comfortable.

I may be wrong right now thinking this, and very easily could change my mind, but if a company sends the docs with something missing, I still don't think it's my job to correct that. They can fix it and pay me to go back when THEY have done their job properly. I don't think I'm being paid to patrol and cover their mistakes. I am a notary, meant to make sure that the docs they provide are signed and notarized. Period.