Posted by Eric Andrist on 3/5/13 11:02pm
Msg #459418

Horrific ordeal with Signing Stream

Got my first call from Signing Stream today, which I guess used to be Home Signings?

Called this morning for a 4 pm signing. Quoted $75. I thought, OK, it must be pretty easy. It was further than I'd usually go for that price, but I wanted to make a good impression.

Docs didn't come until shortly before I had to leave. Tons of pages! I didn't even really get to look at them before I left as I didn't want to be late.

Signing went great...people were fantastic.

Once in the signing, I'm thinking, this is no $75 job! There were over 200 pages, 2 sets, 20 notarizations. PLUS, faxbacks, 96 pages to the Lender, and all the notarized pages to Signing Stream.

Took me 45 minutes to get home in L.A. traffic. Got home and called Signing Stream and told them what all it entailed. The gal immediately starts hemming and hawing with excuses.

After arguing with her, and another guy, I got them to agree to $250.

After reading all the other bad reviews, no one should be taking jobs from them. And they're supposedly past loan signers?!

Reply by Stoli on 3/5/13 11:07pm
Msg #459421

Unfortunately, Eric, it doesn’t matter what they agree to pay until the check clears the bank.

Reply by Eric Andrist on 3/5/13 11:27pm
Msg #459422

Well, that's very true!

Reply by Treasure Valley Notary - Tina on 3/6/13 12:32am
Msg #459427

Eric you must be pretty new to this business. First $75 for any job is too low, unless there are special circumstances - such as a 1 document signing. You need to figure out your expenses so that you can come up with a respectable base fee. Second, you should have never left before you renegotiated your fee. As soon as I see 200 pages, I am making phone calls. That is equal to almost 2 loan signings. Plus the faxbacks. Come on.

I personally don't know the company, but did you get the amended fee in writing? If they do have bad reviews . . .

Based on what you wrote, you need to have some more basics under your belt before you go out again. A good business plan is a must. If you want to make a good impression on a company, know what you are worth and charge it. Then do the job properly. Please don't take that wrong, I'm not implying that you did not do a good job with the signing. But you did a lousy job at costing it out. That good impression you wanted to make went out the window when you called them back demanding a higher fee.

I wish you the very best in the business. Read this board, there is a wealth of information here.

Reply by Eric Andrist on 3/6/13 1:08am
Msg #459430

Yes, very new. It was only my 2nd big loan signing. Having said that, we were given the advice in the loan signing class I took that when we start out, it's a good idea to get some signings under our belt even if it's with the lower rated companies for less money. The bigger companies often want 1-2 years of signing before they'll even consider you.

I can't afford to turn down any work at this point, putting together my business has been very expensive (I'm doing more than just notary.) As I said, I assumed the $75 was going to be for a very easy job. I'll never assume again!

It was a mistake on my part to not go more carefully through the documents, but I didn't want to be late. You can't EVER gauge the traffic in L.A. and it was getting late in the day...traffic time.

Having said that, I have it in writing now that they are going to pay me $250! Whether they actually do or not remains to be seen. As for the good impression, once they showed their true colors, I didn't care about them anymore. But I also wanted to make a good impression on the signers, which I did, as they might use me for other work.

Thanks for taking the time to write to me, though! It's truly appreciated. So much of the nitty gritty things of what we really need to do just aren't always covered in class, even though it was a very good class.

Reply by Treasure Valley Notary - Tina on 3/6/13 1:58am
Msg #459434

More To Learn

Eric I don't know who you took your course through, but it is never a good idea to undercut yourself. You are right that it can be expensive to get your business set up. But that is just one of the many reasons why you need to price your services accordingly. IF you are truly ready to go out on a loan signing then why do you think you need to drop your prices for experience?

It is true that many companies want 1 to 2 years of experience before hiring someone. But that does not mean that you take any job just to make some money. $75 for a job, especially the size you described, means that you are loosing money. Do you even know what it takes to cost out a job? How much is your printing going to cost you? The equipment? Replacement toner? Your cell phone? Computer? Car? Gas? I could go on and on with expenses. Figure it out now, before you have to do your taxes is 2014. The IRS expects you to run your business as such. Which means they also expect you to pay your taxes. Do you know how much they will run with each job you take?

This is just one reason why a business plan is the first place you start. Taking a loan signing class is not enough. And those lower rated companies stay in business because of people like yourself. Willing to do the work and they get the pay. Not a good deal for you at all.

You say you can't afford to turn down any work. Well I am here to tell you that no job should cost you money to complete. And that will mean turning down jobs that don't pay a decent fee. Only you can come up with that fee.

When documents are late that means you will be too. Just the hazards of the industry. Do you have a drop dead time for them? Maybe it is a policy you need to put into place. When you do get your docs, tTake the few moments to know what you have in your hands before you leave your office. I know that traffic can be a nightmare (thankfully here in Idaho that isn't one of our issues on a normal basis). But that is just one more reason to charge accordingly.

The best advice I can give you is to read, read, and read this board. Start here and work your way back. ALL the way back. Yes, it will take a ton of time. But it will be the best education on this business you will get. Many of us have been doing this for lots of years. We know what we are talking about. Read all the posts from PAW and Sylvia. Two incredible people that offered many of us their wealth of info. PAW passed away, but will always be remembered. Sylvia has come and gone due to health problems, but she still pops in every once in a while.

Before you accept any other assignment figure out your base fee. Then tack on other fees as needed - fax backs, no notice (print and run), travel (just how far are you willing to go and what fee will it take for your expenses and time), etc. Sometimes I even charge an annoyance fee. I HATE when a company keeps calling me to take a signing and they won't pay the fee I need. After the 3rd call I start to get annoyed at being interrupted by them. Some days it is just too much, so the fee starts to go up. Not everyone can do that, and most won't. I rarely do, but I have. I'm not sitting around waiting for jobs. I am always working on something. Which may be why I have 5 businesses - all my eggs aren't in any given basket. It is a juggle at times.

Good luck to you. Feel free to ask the board questions, but be forewarned, do your homework first. The Search button should be your best friend. And be prepared for blunt answers.

Reply by HisHughness on 3/6/13 2:01am
Msg #459435

***As I said, I assumed the $75 was going to be for a very easy job.***

The ONLY assumption you should ever make about a $75 signing with printing is that it is too low.

You do the entire industry a disservice when you accept signings for fees that low; all you do is perpetuate the lowballers in business. And, when you finally have reached the level where you consider yourself experienced, you then will be confronted with the fruits of your earlier indiscretion, because YOU then will have to contend with the downward pressure on fees exerted by the bottom feeders.

If you have the minimum level of competence needed to do a loan signing, then you have the level of competence required to demand higher fees than $75. If you do not have that level of competence, then you should not be doing loan signings at any price.

Reply by Treasure Valley Notary - Tina on 3/6/13 2:05am
Msg #459437

"Like"

Sure wish there was a "like" button. Hugh nailed it on the head.

Reply by MW/VA on 3/6/13 7:30am
Msg #459450

OMG, Eric. I can't imagine anyone teaching a class

& advising people to work for lowballers & bad cos. That was really bad advice, and at least you were able to stand up for yourself in this situation. Lesson learned--the worst cos. offer to lower fees, are generally a hassle to work with, and often are deadbeats to boot. IMO you don't need that kind of experience "under your belt".

Reply by MW/VA on 3/6/13 7:30am
Msg #459451

Shame on the person who is teaching that to newbies!!! n/m

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 3/17/13 8:49am
Msg #461673

Re: Shame on the person who is teaching that to newbies!!!

Since my true thoughts about such a "trainer" would not be appropriate for any public forum, it is probably best that I just "Ditto" your remarks.

Reply by 101livescan on 3/6/13 8:30am
Msg #459468

THAT IS HORRIBLE ADVICE AND YOUR INSTRUCTOR SHOULD BE TAKEN OUT AND BEATEN FOR SUCH. I taught this class too, and I advised my students quite the opposite. Don't work for cheap and don't work for scam artists. YOU WERE FLEECED. They were laughing their butts off when they hung up the phone, Eric.

Eric, I seriously doubt you'll see that $250 because these people have no integrity, and I'll bet your bottom dollar, they are not making $250 on the entire package either.

Reply by CopperheadVA on 3/6/13 6:44am
Msg #459445

My very first closing I ever did I got paid $150 and it involved about an hour of travel each way. I am curious what company you got your training from that encourages you to basically give your services away for free - sounds like you got bad advice from them. Does not sound like you made any profit on this particular job.

Reply by hodgy on 3/6/13 7:05am
Msg #459447

90 days until you might get paid...

Let's check back in 90 days on this to see if they paid you and how much. Yes 90 days should be just about right and only if you call them several times and email them perhaps you will get paid "some" of that fee. Give us an update.

and maybe there are some notaries on this site that actually like this company because they gave them testimonials here

http://signingstream.com/testimonials/

Maybe some of the notaries that gave them a testimonial can help you out with how to deal with this company.

They are a TERRIBLE company and hopefully you learned a lesson to NOT deal with these lowballing #$%##%^

Reply by Eric Andrist on 3/6/13 10:16am
Msg #459494

I don't think there's anything wrong with newbies working their way up the ladder. One rarely starts off in a position making top dollar. Sure, you can luck into getting with a company that's fair and equitable, but I've applied to a majority of good ones on the list now, and only heard from one. I've had several calls from less star rated companies.

$75 is not giving services away for free IF it's a signing close by with few docs. My mistake was not qualifying the extent of the job first....a lesson learned. I was just thrilled someone had called.

So I don't think it was bad advice at all.

Having said that, I now have an agreement with them to pay me $250 for the job. Whether they actually do remains to be seen.

Reply by SharonMN on 3/6/13 10:42am
Msg #459507

Never assume that is someone is offering less, it's because it is an easy job. My experience has been that there is a rough inverse correlation between price offered and PITA factor: the less they want to pay, the MORE work it will probably be.

I also don't think it is terrible to take a few jobs at a "training" rate to start out, as long as you have enough of an idea what you're doing to do right by the borrowers. But, wow Eric -- I really want to know your secret for getting the hiring party to agree to hike your fee from $75 to $250 AFTER the job was done. Very impressive indeed.

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 3/17/13 9:59am
Msg #461679

You mean you actually paid for a worthless training class?

It is not only Very Bad Advice but I get the impression that the person that gave you that advice either has a connection to a lowballing/low rated company and/or doesn't have enough basic business knowledge to be qualified to even utter such stupid advice.

At this point, I question the quality of their "training" classes. Whether they realize it or not, they are outright telling the people that paid them that even after their "training", a person is not qualified to demand a professional fee. I would immediately demand my money back if I ever paid someone for training and they were telling me that their training was basically worthless during the training classes!! If they are unable to turn out competent and trained NSA's, they shouldn't be in the NSA "training" business!

If a company has a low rating in SC, I can say with a very high degree of confidence, that they have EARNED the low ratings. If other NSA's are saying that they have not received payment, they had to chase down their payment, the company takes 6 months to pay - and only did so after threats of legal action, etc., a person would have to be a FOOL to think that such a company would not treat them the same way just because they are new to the industry!! Do you really believe that this "trainer" you mentioned actually believes low rated companies will change for his/her unqualified "trained" students?

Run the real numbers, which include much more than just paper, toner, and gas, and any good business person can determine that $75 for refi signings are only profitable for the hiring party. Preform a search here regarding this subject. Many, many discussions with a lot of really good details about why $75 is not really profitable, at least not for ethical NSA's. Some unethical, part-time, NSA's that are stealing from their employers have tried to argue they are. Advice from a thief about what they think is profitable is probably not the best advice for anyone to use as a business model.
====================

I really do hope that everything works out for you and you do actually receive the full payment of $250.

I am curious about the details of what happened that would result in a SS that originally offered $75 to increase the offer to $250. Either the situation was really bad or you are one hell of a salesman/negotiator.

Reply by 101livescan on 3/6/13 8:08am
Msg #459458

Rule of Thumb. The lower the fee, the bigger the job.

These guys are scam artists. They definitely saw you coming, Eric, and took sore advantage of someone who does not know how to "price himself".

Reply by ToniK on 3/6/13 8:12am
Msg #459460

I didnt read past the 2nd sentence...was no point after that n/m

Reply by Eric Andrist on 3/6/13 10:17am
Msg #459495

Re: I didnt read past the 2nd sentence...was no point after that

But there was a point in telling us that you didn't read past the second sentence?

Reply by ToniK on 3/6/13 4:16pm
Msg #459576

Most definitely n/m

Reply by 101livescan on 3/6/13 8:13am
Msg #459461

Eric, word of advice. DON'T WORK FOR THREE STAR AND UNDER COMPANIES. Be careful even with Four and Five Stars. Some pay under $100, but have managed to get themselves rated four stars by falsely puffing up their ratings, either by coercing their notaries to do it or having friends, family or employees do it.

Reply by Eric Andrist on 3/6/13 10:19am
Msg #459498

I'm trying not to! But as I mentioned in another post, I've applied to all the 4 and 5 star companies and only one has called. I can't afford to not work. One 2 star company called me with a very fair $50, one-page signing less than a mile from me. It wouldn't do me any good to throw jobs like those away.

Reply by MistarellaFL on 3/6/13 11:51am
Msg #459517

<<I can't afford to not work.>>Can you afford to work free?

Eric, what we are trying to help you to understand, is this:

Can you afford to work for free or at a negative profit (loss)?

One of the things you must understand in this field is that business and success comes with time and perseverance.

Many companies already have their go-to signers in your area.

You will get the calls when the go-to is fully booked/on vacation/out sick/takes a day off OR the signing company is overwhelmed with signings for a certain day/time and willing to take on a newcomer NSA.... you get the picture.

Here's some great, free advice:
Rather than work for questionable companies, continue marketing to reputable companies, and while waiting for loan work to show up, market yourself for GNW.
GNW pays great in CA, funds are COD, and there are some days when you will make more money than you would on a loan signing.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/6/13 12:32pm
Msg #459522

I wondered about that statement too...

hints that he gave up his day job and jumped into this without prior research..I hope not..but I did wonder.

Reply by ToniK on 3/6/13 4:19pm
Msg #459581

hmmm n/m

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 3/17/13 1:33pm
Msg #461728

If so, maybe an XYZ success story?

As in, another person that XYZ successfully separated their money from with the false hype $100K/yr with easy work & fast cash spill; because there is such a need for NSA's in the industry.

They have been flooding the market for years with, imo, false and deceptive advertisements and hype regarding the imaginary shortage of NSA's in the industry.

I really hope not, but ....

Reply by Kat2857/CA on 3/6/13 8:28am
Msg #459467

Sounds like the same school I went to.....in So. Calif.

We were told the same information on starting out. I am so glad I found this forum, as I would have probably followed the same advice from the instructor.

Reply by Eric Andrist on 3/6/13 10:20am
Msg #459499

Re: Sounds like the same school I went to.....in So. Calif.

So what did you do instead and was it successful?

Reply by Kat2857/CA on 3/6/13 5:33pm
Msg #459597

Re: Sounds like the same school I went to.....in So. Calif.

I just sign with 4 & 5 star listings on here as well as the "list" I received from my class (s).
I took two Loan signing classes, because I was not happy with the first one. The second eas much better and I had access to a full set of Refi Docs. Plus they offer mentoring. Other than that I have only had 4 signings in a few months. I posted on here that I was getting very discouarged and several posted that it can take up to a year to get established. I spent alot of money setting this up.
Good luck to you,

Reply by Jessica/FL on 3/6/13 1:01pm
Msg #459525

Let me get this straight....

You accepted the $75 signing. (This is your first mistake) You agreed to this and then after the signing you called them back and want more money? These are questions that you need to ask at the time of the call from the SS. Once you accept the fee, unless there are excruciating circumstances, that is the fee you should be paid. If you had a problem with 200 pages, you should have called the SS as soon as you saw 200 pages and not gone out and completed the assignment and expected more money. You live in LA, there is lots of traffic there. It is not the SS fault that it took over 45 minutes to get home. This is why you should have a set price and no matter if its a 100 page package or 200 page package, the price should not make or break you. I think before you go out on any other signings, you should see if you can shadow another notary.