Posted by Kat2857/CA on 3/12/13 12:25am
Msg #460686

How close to the legal name will you sign docs?

Last year I refi, and my legal first name is Kathleen, however I use Kathy for Everything. Would you have done my signing????

Reply by Lee/AR on 3/12/13 12:37am
Msg #460688

Show me your birth certificate with Kathleen and a bunch of stuff with Kathy and, yes, I'd do it. But, then, I'm not in CA and am allowed to use common sense.

Reply by Karla/OR on 3/12/13 3:48am
Msg #460692

Sorry I'm a visual kind of person. Can you expound a bit? What name is on your DL? Exactly how was your name typed on the signature line on the docs?

Thanks.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/12/13 8:26am
Msg #460700

I'm with Karla - how did you take title and what's on

your ID? That's what we need to see.

And again, I'm sorry - if you took title as Kathleen - you MUST sign Kathleen.

Reply by BobtheElder on 3/12/13 8:30am
Msg #460701

I could only notarize it if your ID matched the docs... the only way to use another name would be with two "Credible Witnesses" so you are stuck with whatever your ID says in most cases...

Reply by dgd/CA on 3/12/13 8:30am
Msg #460702

Actually Kathy, this is one area that our SOS is fairly liberal in. If your ID is in your legal name, it is considered common and reasonable that one would use a variance in their day to day lives. Kathleen could be Kathy or Kate; Samuel could be Sam or Sammy; Joseph could be Joe or Joey, so forth and so on.

However; if what your saying is that your ID states Kathy and the docs are completed as Kathleen,
for some, that could be a problem. Please expound a bit more on your post.

Reply by Kat2857/CA on 3/12/13 10:21am
Msg #460720

Sorry let me clarify

I did a refi last April. My Legal name is Kathleen, (as on my I.D.) but, the docs were drawn up with Kathy. I was just wanting to take a survey of sort. As you said dgd/CA our SOS is pretty liberal in this.

Thank you!

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/12/13 10:30am
Msg #460724

Here in FL I could - and that's why I love our laws

"Appeared before me Kathleen <lastname> who represented to me that she took title as Kathy <lastname> and provided <type of ID> in the name of Kathleen <lastname> as ID."

You should really consider changing your vestings to be in line with your ID - makes life a lot simpler.

My Driver's License is Linda J. Hubbell - so is my social security card, my voter registration card, title to my house, my car, my Will, DPOA, Living Will, life insurance policy, bank accounts, my commission and my signature .... everything - there will be no question who I am

Reply by jba/fl on 3/12/13 11:48am
Msg #460742

Re: Here in FL I could - and that's why I love our laws

Me too.

Also, as Linda - one name on everything - everything matches. No questions at all about who. Highly recommend.

Reply by MrEd_Ca on 3/12/13 12:09pm
Msg #460745

I Beg to Differ ...

I would not accept Kathy for Kathleen. If I can not find the name elements on the doc to be in the name that is on the approved ID I would not make that leap. I think adding a name element (in this case 'y') is making a leap that a notary should not be required to make.

And I have not found our SOS to be 'liberal' on this sort of thing. In the phone & email conversations I have had with them I have found them to be both obtuse & not very direct. I think the example you cited might just set up the next notary, who might just be a wee bit more conservative, to be yelled at. My conversations with the SOS have always stated that the notary can not make any 'additions' to the name, beyond what is on the ID. The SOS also said that 'supplimentary documentation' (Birth Cert, credit card, bills, ect) that are not on the approved list can not be used to create or certify a name that is not on the approved ID.

The scenario that you cited is one that gives me nightmares because something like it is usually behind what I occasionally hear from clients --- 'Well, the last notary said it was ok & notarized in that name, whats your problem?' (On occasion, they have even produced the document.)

I agree with the post above:
"You should really consider changing your vestings to be in line with your ID - makes life a lot simpler. " And for the next notary as well.

On this subject, I had a signer a few weeks ago whose name on approved ID was 'Robert Johnstone" The name on the docs that needed to be notarized was 'Robert Johns" . There were several trust documents & a couple of POA's with the name as 'Johns'. Both his DL & USPassport name was 'Johnstone'. I could not make the leap. I think he just went out & found a new notary after I left (probably at one of the UPS stores in town). While I do subscribe to the urban legend of ' Equal to or less than' for matching ID with the doc, I could not make this leap. Following that appointment, I modified the urban legend to include --- 'not for last names'.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 3/12/13 1:17pm
Msg #460755

Agree with MrEd

Just because Kathleen is appearing before you, to make the leap that's Kathy, how do you know you have the right Kathleen? How about Katy or Kat or Kathie or Kit or Kitty, all of which could be names in their own right, as well as nicknames for Kathleen. Let's say you notarize three Kathleens in a row all with different names on the docs. OK, here's Kathleen behind door #1, but you said she was Kathy. Here's Kathleen #2, but you said she was Kat, and here's Kathleen #3 but you said she was Kathie. Who's the real Kathleen? Well, guess. Maybe none of these Kathleens is really Kathy or Kat or Kathie. Where do we draw the line?

I also agree with Mr.Ed regarding the "liberal" SOS. I have not found them to be liberal about anything. He hit it exactly: they're obtuse and not very direct. IMO they purposely phrase many of their pronouncements so they can be interpreted a hundred different ways.

As for MrEd's final example I wouldn't have touched that, either. The doc requiring his signature introduced an entirely new name that what was on his ID.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 3/12/13 4:04pm
Msg #460775

The CA SOS and IDs

I'm not going to comment on what I would do in this situation because every situation is different. But for the record, I've never seen anything in California notary law that addresses how to make a judgment as to whether an ID is an adequate "match" or not, beyond the following:

"(a) The acknowledgment of an instrument shall not be taken unless the officer taking it has
satisfactory evidence that the person making the acknowledgment is the individual who is
described in and who executed the instrument.

(b) For the purposes of this section “satisfactory evidence” means the absence of information,
evidence, or other circumstances that would lead a reasonable person to believe that the person
making the acknowledgment is not the individual he or she claims to be..."

Then it goes on to state what types of IDs can be used. I interpret that as meaning that it is up to each individual notary in each different set of circumstances to use good judgment to determine whether or not they feel there is any information that would lead "a reasonable person" to believe the signer is NOT who they claim to be AND if the ID presented is "satisfactory".

Further, it's not the role of the SOS office staff to interpret the intricacies of the law for California notaries, and they frequently tell us that. They DO provide guidance as to where to locate pertinent code and provide info about basics, etc., as seen in the newsletters that have been published from time to time. (And it's my belief that much of the concern and motivation behind recent efforts - i.e. disciplinary guidelines and newsletters, etc. - is due to the flagrant incompetence that we've read about here so often, e.g. notarizing after the fact and writing "loan docs" as a description of what was signed, etc.) But they are not attorneys and I think we have sometimes gotten carried away with turning to them for clarification for every possibility we might run into.

As for the original issue, I do have to wonder why someone would bother keeping a legal name on an ID if they're not going to use it. And how did you sign your DL? As Kathy?

Reply by Notarysigner on 3/12/13 1:24pm
Msg #460759

Re: I Beg to Differ ... Agree what is missing here is

If you know the county recorder will not accept Kathy, why do it?

I mean, we have SS who often give incorrect instructions, TC who give incorrect instructions and then there's the horses' mouth....the County Clerk....I'm telling you, they have final say so. If you know what they will or won't do, it doesn't matter what anybody else says. Period!

Again, what's the purpose of sending in a photocopy of the ID you use?

Reply by Matt_VA on 3/12/13 1:21pm
Msg #460758

Re: Sorry let me clarify

I would not.

Reply by MW/VA on 3/12/13 2:34pm
Msg #460762

I ran into a young woman a short while back that

couldn't understand why she had to sign her full legal name on the docs. It was a very similar issue like Kathleen/Katie. Unless you go through the legal process of changing your name, it is shown on the docs the way you took title (usually full legal name) & that's what you sign. I've seen situations where Michael/Mike were issues, too, and some even have d/l in Mike. IMO a nickname does not automaticaly become your legal name.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 3/12/13 3:03pm
Msg #460766

Re: I ran into a young woman a short while back that

If a person with Kathleen on all ID was about to sign Kathy on the mortgage, I would accept it if the signing were in the house described in the mortgage, the DL showed the address of the house in the mortgage, and her age was compatible with the year in which she took title according to the mortgage or Exhibit A. If any of those factors are missing, she will have to come up with something good to compensate. I think those factors would add up to as good an ID as meeting in a coffee shop with Kathleen, who's DL says PO Box 123 in the same town as the house in the mortgage, with a blank Exhibit A, where the mortgage is to be signed with "Kathleen".

Reply by CH2inCA on 3/12/13 4:37pm
Msg #460784

Reply from CA SOS

Thank you for your inquiry.



Pursuant to California Civil Code section 1185(3) which states in part… "Reasonable reliance of the presentation to the officer..." For example, it is normally reasonable to believe that if "Sam" is on the document, and is short for Samuel, which is on the identification, however if the id shows just Sam, the document could show S., Samuel, Samantha, etc. You need to have reasonable reliance that the person appearing before you is the same person who signed the document. Other elements on the identification such as photo, description, address, and signature can also be used to determine reasonable reliance.


Sincerely,

Notary Public Section

Reply by Notarysigner on 3/12/13 6:27pm
Msg #460812

example from Alameda country recorder office

Real property records, which date back to 1853 when the County became incorporated, can be found alphabetically
.........by names of parties identified on the documents...........

The indexes to documents recorded prior to 1969 are found on microfilm while documents recorded from 1969 to the present can be found on the Recorder's online computer index.

To confirm the recording of a document within the last three months, you may search online or call the Customer Service Unit at 1-888-280-7708 for the Recorder's series number assigned to the document. You will need the type of document and the names of the parties.

........... shown on the document.....

For us, the name on the document is the catch all.....not how the party says the "always" sign. So although you can sign anyway you want, in order to record the document these rules must be followed, at least here.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 3/12/13 9:00pm
Msg #460849

Re: example from Alameda country recorder office

I don't understand Notarysigner's post. Is the whole post a quote form a website? His interpretation from looking through the records? I would think it would be hard to tell what the rules are by looking at what got recorded, because you don't get to see what was rejected.