Posted by George Tull on 3/27/13 6:49pm
Msg #463396

What am I supposed to do?

Signing agency sent me to a late night refi signing at borrower's home. The only contact number given to me was the signing agency's and the title company's.

Borrower claimed that title company had called earlier that day and explained that some $4k would be due from the borrower at the closing. I show up with papers saying that some $9k is due from the borrowers. Digging into the HUD we see that the lender is paying off their current mortgage for $390k, but borrowers show me their most recent statement showing a balance of $377k.

So the borrowers are being told to pay $5k more at the closing, and that their new loan will be paying $13k more than their current loan's balance. Problem!

I'm not a banker, so I call the signing agency for guidance. They're closed. So I call the title company. They're closed. So I dig up the lender's number (Citi). They pass me from one person to the next until I give up.

At this point I have invested a good 3 hours into this closing (drive time, printing, at the borrower's home), so I am not about to walk away to collect a $20 fee, hopefully, for the attempt. I begged the borrower's to sign anyways, promising to not turn anything in until we got some answers. They did, and I left.

The next morning I make contact with the signing agency. They act dumbfounded. Then I make contact with the title company. They say that it's not their problem, but promise to have a loan officer contact me and the borrower. Hours later, no information from anyone. So I try the signing agency again. They promise to make the title company call the borrower. They never do. So I call Citi. I get passed around to 20 people. None of them want to help.

At the end of the day I call the signing agency again. They tell me to just ship the docs.

In my 9-5 I work for a small title company and lender. Customers just aren't treated this way. If I have an issue at a remote closing, I have a phone number of 10 different people that will answer their phone 24/7 and make a decision.

What should I have done in this nightmare closing? Did I do too much/too little? Shouldn't we have someone to call for guidance during the closing? Should I have shipped the docs?

Reply by Yoli/CA on 3/27/13 6:58pm
Msg #463398

You state it's a refi. If it's primary residence, it probably has a 3-day RTC. You've done all you can, and then some! Hopefully there is a RTC and it's now up to the borrowers to contact their LO and get clarification and decide if they want to go forward.

Never hold docs - hostage or otherwise. Yes. You're absolutely correct. There should always be someone available to answer borrowers' questions.

Reply by LisaWI on 3/27/13 6:59pm
Msg #463399

Wow! That is sadness......I do feel for you.......

I always go over the amount due from the borrowers in the confirmation call. It is my protocol. It saves headaches down the line for everyone. And in addition, before leave for an appt that I know most likely the offices will be closed, I make sure I get an after hours phone number for someone that can be contacted in the event of questions or like you just experienced, a misunderstanding of what was to be brought to the table.

For this one its a lesson learned in the world of remote closings for you......sorry you had to experience it to this level though......

Reply by Teresa/FL on 3/27/13 6:59pm
Msg #463400

Was this a primary residence refi with a 3-day RTC?

If the borrowers are willing to sign, they have 3 days to get their questions answered and revisions made to the HUD, if necessary.

You are just the notary and it seems you tried your best at the signing to contact someone who could answer the borrowers questions.

At this point, it is up to the borrowers to get answers from the LO, otherwise they can use their RTC.

Ship the docs.

Reply by George Tull on 3/27/13 7:07pm
Msg #463405

Re: Was this a primary residence refi with a 3-day RTC?

Thanks for the advice everyone!

Yes it is a refi, so yes they have 3 days. My moral issue is that I promised to not ship anything until they got answers. Of course I explained that they had 3 days to get this fixed, and could easily cancel, but the borrowers weren't satisfied with that. The only way I could get them to sign was by doing what I did.

I did learn a few lessons, as some of you stated:

1- get the amount due from borrowers when hired. Call the borrowers and make sure they are aware of the amount.

2- have phone numbers for decision makers that will answer my calls during the closing. I will never make that mistake again.

Yes, this was a real nightmare and had me really question my "duties", but I guess all good lessons come with a price?

Thank you all so much for the input. I really appreciate you.

Reply by MistarellaFL on 3/27/13 7:03pm
Msg #463403

I would not have continued the closing unless the brws intended to use their RTC rather than "sign and I won't ship the docs until answers are given."
Now you have 2 obligations...the hiring company wants you to ship and the promise to the brws you wouldn't ship.
Have you spoke to the brws since?

One way to get the lender/broker's attention to the brw's concern sometimes is a no-sign.
I think you've dipped in too far as is.

Reply by George Tull on 3/27/13 7:09pm
Msg #463409

Yes, you are right. If this comes up again, I will just adjourn and go with a no sign.

Reply by Roger_OH on 3/27/13 7:05pm
Msg #463404

" I begged the borrowers to sign anyways..."

You were clearly out of line here, coercing the borrowers to sign documents with numbers they didn't agree with, just so you'd receive a signing fee!! This is unconscionable behavior for an NSA. You cannot attempt to have borrowers sign or not sign, especially for your own purposes.

Otherwise, you got way too involved on this. When it became clear that the numbers were not what the borrowers wanted, and when you couldn't reach anyone, that's your cue to pack up and let them discuss it with their LO when he/she can be reached. No way should you have spent 3 hours there; it was already late evening - how could you expect to reach anyone that could help? You should always get an after-hours contact number for the LO or title company.

The borrowers having the correct package is MUCH more important than your "travel fee".

Reply by George Tull on 3/27/13 7:13pm
Msg #463410

I agree that I did too much to close this one. You are right.

"Coercion" is a tough term though. I did not coerce them. But "beg" was probably not the right term either. I did agree to do too much to make it right though. Lesson learned. Thank you.

Reply by ToniK on 3/27/13 7:08pm
Msg #463408

IMHO I wouldve left and sent the docs back unsigned. My business practice is full fee as its not my fault. I definitely would not have done 3 hours. Not every company has good business practices (referencing title company). You couldve looked on the 1003 got the LO number, called and left message about the issue and have him call the BO and just left. That wouldve took probably 30 mins.

Reply by George Tull on 3/27/13 7:17pm
Msg #463411

The lenders number in the package was a general 800 number that doesn't lead to any particular person.

The agreement I signed called for a $20 no sign fee. Another lesson learned.

It was 3 hours total. Perhaps 30 minutes printing and reading, 30 minutes driving each way, well over an hour at the borrower's trying to get answers. Of course I then spent many hours the next day trying to get someone to call the borrower.

Reply by NVLSlady/VA on 3/27/13 10:20pm
Msg #463450

No Sign Fee

Precisely why I "tossed" aside a recent SS application with a "$25 flat no-sign fee". Not!!

It was somewhere on the last page of the app. Who would actually agree to something like this??

I had a similar scenario a couple of months ago where bor wasn't comfortable with #s, was an atty and didn't want to sign. The only thing I do is explain the RTC, but that's as far as I'll go (no way would I ask anyone to do something I sure WOULDN'T do). Not going to waste my time signing anything that wasn't what I wanted - even if notary drove 2.5 hours in a hailstorm. I'd make him/her some hot chocolate, offer cookies and send them on their way.

BTW, no-sign incident with the atty, NOW closings paid me FULL fee

Reply by George Tull on 3/27/13 10:35pm
Msg #463454

Re: No Sign Fee

Hey. Yeah that low $ no sign fee is a real issue. I'm hoping that I will soon be in the position to turn those down. Making the notary's payment contingent on issues that they are not able to address is not good.

I never have these problems with my day job because we are a team that will make sure that problems get fixed ASAP. Obviously not every lender/ title company is like that. Great lesson and a trap I won't put myself into again!

Reply by jba/fl on 3/28/13 9:10am
Msg #463476

Re: No Sign Fee

When you get a confirmation from someone, shoot them an email back saying something to the effect:

"I will do this signing for your company for $xxx..00. All faxing or scanning, dropping package with excellent communications along the way are included in this price.

Note: This email confirms our fee agreement made by phone and the price quoted is the fee agreed upon by both parties and is not subject to arbitrary reduction or increase by either party. Your invoice will be for the amount you agreed upon...no exceptions. No Show, No Sign or No Fund all receive Full Fee. If this is not agreeable with you, please cancel this order immediately before documents are printed."

I will not accept their terms lying down - kinda like lying down with dogs, you get up with fleas.

Do I lose a job now and then? yes - but remember, when you are paying almost $4 gal. for gas, paper is at an all time high, driving 30 mi. one way - these costs plus something for my time in all this is important to me. I have my own charities, of my choice.

Reply by George Tull on 3/28/13 9:48am
Msg #463481

Re: No Sign Fee

Fantastic advice!!! Thank you.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/27/13 7:18pm
Msg #463412

Yeah..way over and above what you should be doing

as an NSA - it's not up to you to call their lender to get clarification on a payoff - that's up to title - and as others have said, could be done during the 3-day rescission period. 3 hours? I don't think so.

Also, is it possible the payoff is correct? Large mortgages, were they current on their payments? Did they owe late fees, added interest? Was there possibly a prepayment penalty in there? If these people were late on a few payments, that can add up fast with a principal balance of $377k.

Yeah..explain they can sign and use the 3 days to straighten it out - even begging, you may have put them in a position that they had to sign just to appease you. And you NEVER NEVER NEVER agree with the borrowers to hold the package.

Good luck in the future.

Reply by George Tull on 3/27/13 7:30pm
Msg #463415

Re: Yeah..way over and above what you should be doing

Hello. Yes it's possible that the payoff is correct, but I doubt it.

I know it's not my responsibility to work with the lender, but I do it every day in my 9-5 (work for a lender/title company). I learned a lesson here for sure about dealing with other companies. Won't happen again!

I didn't coerce them into signing anything. I explained the 3 day period. I did make a mistake offering to hold the package.

Thank you!

Reply by MW/VA on 3/27/13 7:45pm
Msg #463420

IMO you did way too much & got too involved. If the nos.

weren't right & the borrower wasn't comfortable signing then it should have been a no-sign. Yes, they have the 3 day RTC, but there's no point in doing that if the nos. aren't right in the first place. It sounds to me that you were mainly concerned with your fee. You did all you could to try to contact someone. Regardless of the outcome, you should be paid a full fee & not just a trip & print fee. Once the signed docs were in your possession you had no choice but to ship them, and that was a violation of what you had agreed to with the borrowers. I wouldn't have gotten that involved. We are not supposed to be in the middle of anything like that situation you found yourself in.

Reply by leeinla on 3/27/13 7:52pm
Msg #463421

Re: Well stated MW.

Agree with Marilynn. I would ship docs back with a note or a typed letter documenting what occurred.
Once borrowers don't agree with the numbers, can't reach anyone, I go home. I did my duty. keep it simple.

Reply by George Tull on 3/27/13 8:01pm
Msg #463425

Re: Well stated MW.

Sound advice. Thank you.

Reply by George Tull on 3/27/13 8:00pm
Msg #463423

Re: IMO you did way too much & got too involved. If the nos.

Thank you! Yes I made some mistakes and learned some lessons. In my 9-5 issues come up like this all the time, but I have relationships to make sure that corrections can be timely made, or answers can be found quickly. When I am hired by a signing agency I do not have these relationships, so I have to be a lot more careful about making promises to "get it taken care of".

No, I wasn't just concerned with my pay. If that was the case I wouldn't have wasted most of the next day calling anyone that would listen and asking them to call the borrower. I wouldn't have talked to the borrower at least 6 times since the closing either.

I get involved this deeply, and more, on a regular basis in my 9-5. It will not happen again for other title companies/ signing agencies/ lenders.

By the way, fwiw, I just spoke with the borrower again. I didn't want to mention the outcome originally because I wanted advice on my actions that led up to the outcome.

I did ship the docs the day after the closing. After I wasted the day trying to get help, I explained everything to the borrower. Not a single person had contacted him. He also made many calls but could not get answers. I told the borrower that I would ship the docs, with his permission, and reminded him about the rescission period. Two days after the closing, the title company finally called him asking for him to wire the funds. When he explained his concerns, the title company told him to call the lender. He had enough, so he faxed in the recision.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/27/13 8:11pm
Msg #463428

Yeah - at 5:00 you have to cut it off..

It's not that you don't have the contacts - you don't have the authority to be calling around.

Also, you said "I told the borrower that I would ship the docs, with his permission, and reminded him about the rescission period."

No. You don't do it with his permission - you tell HIM that you HAVE to ship the docs, you have no choice, you are obligated to return the docs to title and it's out of your hands. Then remind him of the 3-day rescission period. You get yourself out of the middle immediately.

JMO

Reply by George Tull on 3/27/13 8:25pm
Msg #463431

Re: Yeah - at 5:00 you have to cut it off..

Thank you. Lesson learned.

I work for a title company/lender for my day job. I go to remote closings regularly. If I have an issue during a closing, I can call the folks in escrow, closing, the loan officer, even the CEO. My job is to get the docs signed. If there are issues, I know with 100% certainty that I can get it fixed. I then follow up with the borrower to make sure that they are pleased. I have the contacts, and the authority to contact any of them, that can resolve any problems at a remote closing, 24/7.

I started freelancing as a NSA maybe 6 months ago. I have never had anything like this happen. When there were issues, I was able to reach someone during the closing that could speak with the borrower. This time, I couldn't. I was treating this "side gig" like I do my 9-5. That was a real mistake, I paid the price, and thanks to you nice people, I really learned some valuable lessons.

This situation will not happen again for me. If the numbers are not right, I can't contact someone to speak with the borrowers, and the borrower is not comfortable signing, I will adjourn. Done deal.

Thank you.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/27/13 9:19pm
Msg #463437

George, believe me, I hear you...I was on your side of

the table for 25 years. It gets really hard to sit there knowing you know the answer or how to solve the problem and there's NOTHING you can do...believe me..been there. It's not easy.

Reply by George Tull on 3/27/13 9:34pm
Msg #463440

Re: George, believe me, I hear you...I was on your side of

Ty Linda. I really appreciate the feedback. It kind of stinks not being able to really help the borrower, but I guess that's the job. It would be nice to only work for great companies like my 9-5 though. Oh well.

Reply by HisHughness on 3/27/13 9:06pm
Msg #463435

George, you got taken to the woodshed on this one.

...a couple of posters scratched you up pretty good, but you took it in good form, overlooked the drubbing, and apparently are going to put the advice to good use. That's the way this forum can be most productive, and I congratulate you on a truly commendable attitude. You'll do well as a signing agent.

Reply by George Tull on 3/27/13 9:27pm
Msg #463439

Re: George, you got taken to the woodshed on this one.

Thank you buddy! I'm really trying to learn. I have a ton of respect for all of u pros that have been doing this forever. Yeah I got beaten up a bit, but that's ok.

Reply by Roger_OH on 3/27/13 9:49pm
Msg #463441

It's quite refreshing, actually...

I shredded him pretty good, but I give him due credit for responding to each of us individually, and taking responsibility for his actions.

Unlike too many that come here with an attitude of entitlement, along with a too-thin skin about constructive criticism and the genuine advice intended to maker them better, George has accepted our comments in a positive manner, and is determined to improve.

Agree with Hugh that George will do well in the future.

Reply by George Tull on 3/27/13 9:55pm
Msg #463443

Re: It's quite refreshing, actually...

Roger, that is really kind of you! Absolutely, I posted this scenario to get some expert feedback. And I got it! I knew I had messed up, but maybe I just needed some help figuring it out. I am very grateful.

Reply by Claudine Osborne on 3/27/13 10:11pm
Msg #463446

Re: It's quite refreshing, actually...

George..I commend you for coming to the forum with your questions..As others have stated and you seem to understand that you overstepped in this situation. This is a good place to learn share with others about this crazy business we are in. You are brave for sharing this situation and taking the advise given Im sure you wont be doing this again! Good luck!

Reply by George Tull on 3/27/13 10:18pm
Msg #463449

Re: It's quite refreshing, actually...

Brave? lol E-brave maybe.

I can't fully explain how frustrating it was for me not being able to help these people. The lender, title company and borrower all lost because I could not link the communication up. So sad!

As for me, from here on out when I am working for other companies I will just be the nerdy notary. Oh boy did I learn my lesson! :p

Reply by JanetK_CA on 3/29/13 1:24am
Msg #463639

You did more than learn a lesson; you set a great example!

I agree with the others about your attitude being a breath of fresh air! You've given a great example of how to "listen" and learn. I don't think anyone reading this thread will have any doubts about you ever making this mistake again. Unfortunately, all too many come here to inquire about how they handled a particular situation only to get defensive and refuse to take the lesson. That has happened here over and over and over again by people who just claimed that the regulars here are mean and rude, when they're just trying to tell it like it is. I think someone else already said this, but it takes a thick skin to make it in this business, and you've showed here that you've got at least that much going for you!

Reply by Ronnie_WA on 3/27/13 10:07pm
Msg #463444

I would have adjourned as soon as I had required the borrower to call the LO and I had called the title company or signing agency, as appropriate. I would have documented the calls and been on my way as quickly as possible. I would have given the borrower the explanation that my role is to obtain signatures for a loan to which all terms have been agreed to prior to my arrival to obtain their signatures. I would have departed with apologies for their inconvenience and assured them the LO will be anxious to work things out tomorrow to their satisfaction. The LO and the escrow officer have the responsibility of giving the borrower notice of funds due prior to your arrival.

Reply by George Tull on 3/27/13 10:10pm
Msg #463445

Perfectly explained Ronnie. I'll use that policy from here on out.

Reply by Ronnie_WA on 3/27/13 10:12pm
Msg #463448

We've all learned the hard way. Don't sweat it.

Reply by Ronnie_WA on 3/27/13 10:11pm
Msg #463447

Forgot to mention that I would have attempted to advise the borrower of funds due prior to the appt as well.

Reply by Buddy Young on 3/27/13 10:31pm
Msg #463453

Re: george, your initiation is complete. n/m

Reply by George Tull on 3/27/13 10:37pm
Msg #463455

Re: george, your initiation is complete.

lol Buddy! Is the hazing over?

Reply by Buddy Young on 3/27/13 10:39pm
Msg #463456

Re: george, your initiation is complete.

I believe so.

Reply by Kenny Services - Dawn on 3/28/13 7:05am
Msg #463462

George, you have to ship documents. Your job is to advise them of there 3-day rtc, I understand that was not enough.
In that case, I would have advised them to call L.O first thing in the morning for answers. I would have shipped doc's but would have given them instructions to overnight the check within the 3-day rtc. it will cost them extra money, or they can request lender acct # from LO to avoid extra expenses. I would not do this for small monies due, but when your talking hundreds or thousands in difference, I mostly definitely would do this, rather than have the loan cancel at the table. Most borrowers will be satisfied with this, others will say forget it, just send the check and we will deal with it tomorrow or cancel.

When you submit the pkg put a note on it about the discrepancy and that borrower will overnight funds when he gets answers from LO, otherwise they would have cancelled at table. This assures they will contact borrowers. Follow-up with a phone call to your hiring party and explain the issues. Your job is done after that.

This is only my two cents.