Posted by Notarysigner on 3/16/13 2:20pm
Msg #461576
What would you do?
1. GNW..Client to lose almost seven figures to State Controller (unclaimed inheritance) on Tuesday.
2. Has no valid ID
3. In drug rehab
4. Relative wants to use two creditable witnesses to process forms/paperwork.
This is real. I asked because last week I was ostracized for using a personal view to decide whether I would complete a notarization. I have no views one way or the other with regards to doing this.
Why, why not, your reason. tnx
| Reply by LKT/CA on 3/16/13 3:02pm
Msg #461583
SEVEN figures & credible witnesses? Oh NO WAY, NO HOW!!!! I've had a person tell me such and such was expiring TOMORROW so I need it notarized TODAY - the case of an elderly mother who didn't know who she was or what planet she was on. Told the son "no can do". Not an ID issue but my point is that the procrastination and deadlines - people try to "guilt" the notary into notarizing when the signer is out if order. Besides, he'll need ID for the bank acct to put this seven figures in which will probably be wired. In fact, sell that....since he'll need ID for the bank acct just go get it NOW for the notarization. That's what I'd do.
| Reply by Notarysigner on 3/16/13 3:27pm
Msg #461589
But...does it matter How..
...much? doesn't matter, ...doesn't matter what day because I'm available those days. As far as talking about "down the road" Like ID needed, that's his business. What's important to me is the you decided, not the handbook. tnx
| Reply by LKT/CA on 3/16/13 3:55pm
Msg #461598
Hmmmm, not exactly
I DID decide based on the handbook...and the "seven" figures does matter, to me. Getting ones hands on seven figures is a far cry from getting ones hands on $500, let's be real. I am not as liberal with using CWs in this day & age of identity theft and fraud. In the past two weeks I've had two debit cards canceled & replaced due to fraud. CHASE fraud dept notified me & B of A fraud dept notified me. Both banks caught the fraud and canceled the cards. I believe the SOS intent is for CWs to be a LAST resort. They eliminated personal knowledge and I believe if they find notaries liberally using CWs, they'll eliminate that too. The people who are CWs could care less about the "oaths" they take. This relative in your scenario can drive the person to the DMV to get a state ID card. **I** wouldn't put my signature & seal on this notarization - dealing with seven figures and CWs....I'd just have to get reported.
| Reply by Marian_in_CA on 3/16/13 4:07pm
Msg #461599
Re: Hmmmm, not exactly
I don't disagree with Lisa's concerns... because they are valid one. My problem with it is that Credible witnesses *are* a valid and acceptable form of ID by CA law, and the signer has the option of using them if they so desire.
It's not unlike a signer who gives you a passport for ID. It's going to expire in 5 days, but is still technically valid.Here's the thing... the passport was issued to a minor when he was 16 years old. Passports for minors are good for 5 years. This guy is now 21 and clearly looks a bit different.
Are you going to say, "No way I'm taking this as ID," just because you aren't happy with it? It's a valid ID option, and, technically, we're allowed to take it. We can't go picking and choosing ID options. The use of credible witness is a "last ditch" alternative to the list of acceptable IDs, but it is still a valid option.
| Reply by VT_Syrup on 3/16/13 4:28pm
Msg #461605
chicken and egg problem
LKT/CA wrote " I believe the SOS intent is for CWs to be a LAST resort. They eliminated personal knowledge and I believe if they find notaries liberally using CWs, they'll eliminate that too." Technically, it would be up to the CA legislature to eliminate credible witnesses. Maybe they will, but if they do, they could put people in an impossible situation.
You need a birth certificate to get a driver's license? Then your request has to be acknowledged before an authorized official. But the CA authorized official can't do it because you don't have a driver's license. Doesn't matter if the person taking the acknowledgement is the Chief Justice of the California Supreme Court, can't be done. So go to another state, an Indian reservation, or a federal judge.
I'm really looking forward to seeing the next CA governor be kicked out of office because when the Chief Justice swore him in, he/she didn't ask to see his/her driver's license.
| Reply by Marian_in_CA on 3/16/13 4:48pm
Msg #461607
Re: chicken and egg problem
"Then your request has to be acknowledged before an authorized official. But the CA authorized official can't do it because you don't have a driver's license. "
Actually, requests for copies of birth certificates only have to be notarized if sent by mail. If you go in person, you do still have to prove your identity, but they are a little more liberal in what they can accept as "photo ID". Also, several people can request a birth certificate in person... CA allows for any of the following to request an official copy of a birth certificate: self, parent, child, grandparent, grandchild, sibling, spouse or domestic partner, attorney
| Reply by BrendaTx on 3/16/13 4:50pm
Msg #461608
Re: chicken and egg problem
*I'm really looking forward to seeing the next CA governor be kicked out of office because when the Chief Justice swore him in, he/she didn't ask to see his/her driver's license.*
ROFL!
| Reply by Notarysigner on 3/16/13 5:18pm
Msg #461613
Re: chicken and egg problem
You know what? I just remembered...I once had to notarize a Doc for a prisoner who was being arraigned for "whatever" and of course they don't have acceptable ID on them right. Anyway they wanted to use the JUDGE as the credible witness and when I asked the Judge for his ID he was shocked but provided it in chambers.
| Reply by Notarysigner on 3/16/13 5:30pm
Msg #461617
Re: chicken and egg problem
>>>>>>>> You need a birth certificate to get a driver's license? Then your request has to be acknowledged before an authorized official. But the CA authorized official can't do it because you don't have a driver's license. Doesn't matter if the person taking the acknowledgement is the Chief Justice of the California Supreme Court, can't be done. So go to another state, an Indian reservation, or a federal judge.<<<<<<<
....."Then your request has to be acknowledged before an authorized official",..no, .request do NOT have to be acknowledged, only submitted to.!
......"But the CA authorized official can't do it because you don't have a driver's license."...... True, so you get creditable witnesses. No problem!
| Reply by VT_Syrup on 3/16/13 6:05pm
Msg #461629
Re: chicken and egg problem
I wasn't clear about CA birth certificate requests: they have to be acknowledged before an authorized official if sent in by mail.
The discussion followed from LKT's view that the CA SOS views credible witnesses as a last-ditch method of identification, and if it was used much, CA MIGHT, IN THE FUTURE, forbid credible witnesses and only allow paper ID.
| Reply by LKT/CA on 3/16/13 5:40pm
Msg #461620
Re: chicken and egg problem
<<<Technically, it would be up to the CA legislature to eliminate credible witnesses. Maybe they will, but if they do, they could put people in an impossible situation.>>>
I don't really care what part of CA gov't would eliminates CWs. People put *themselves* in impossible situations...not the legislatures fault that folks are lazy.
<<<I'm really looking forward to seeing the next CA governor be kicked out of office because when the Chief Justice swore him in, he/she didn't ask to see his/her driver's license.>>>
Not a NOTARY or CW issue so I don't care about that either.
| Reply by BossLadyMD on 3/16/13 3:22pm
Msg #461588
James, I wouldnt touch it with a 10' pole n/m
| Reply by Marian_in_CA on 3/16/13 3:31pm
Msg #461590
1. GNW..Client to lose almost seven figures to State Controller (unclaimed inheritance) on Tuesday."
Well, irrelevant, really... to you as the notary. The time pressure might matter to to them, though. But to you? Not so much.
2. Has no valid ID
Well, that's a problem, obviously... no ID - no notarization. However, Credible Witnesses *are* a valid form of ID if you have two individuals who will swear under oath to the required information.
3. In drug rehab
Again, irrelevant. Can you communicate with the person directly? That's what matters.
4. Relative wants to use two creditable witnesses to process forms/paperwork.
I don't really care what the relative wants. What does the SIGNER want to do? The credible witness can't be used to "process" anything. They are only there to serve as living ID for the signer.
I wouldn't automatically turn it away. I'd make sure I spoke with the SIGNER, not the relative. And, I'd talk to the witnesses, explain the oath and REMIND them that they are under oath. Also, I'd point out the little law that says if they are lying about having a financial interest in the document being signed and are convicted of perjury... than state law mandates that they forfeit their financial interest. That means, they need to take their oath seriously and not be lying...because perjury is a felony.
The content and situation are not our concern... but I'd be sure that my communication was with the signer, not the relative coordinating things. I'd also be sure that the relative coordinating it knew that I would get paid for my travel no matter what, and getting the notarization done was dependent upon MANY factors that I would determine once I got there.
| Reply by Notarysigner on 3/16/13 3:35pm
Msg #461592
Yes, 100% agree on all points. I will decide when I talk to the client and ask a couple of questions, starting with did you try to call me?
| Reply by JanetK_CA on 3/16/13 4:13pm
Msg #461603
I agree. Only relevant issue is item #2. And the considerations listed under CA law for that use should be the only criteria considered, i.e. is it difficult or impossible for him to get another ID, do they know he doesn't have one, do they have a financial interest in the document and do they know that person to be the one named in the document.
Years ago I created a form for the CWs to sign that has those items spelled out, with language taken right from the legal code (unlike what I stated above). I ask them to read it before I administer the oath to them, then I have them sign it and I execute a jurat. (I keep the completed forms in the back of my journal.) Of course, they have to sign my journal, too, but the point is that I believe (or certainly hope!) this helps them take the issue a little more seriously, and I have it documented that they signed under oath. So then it's on them and not me. I've completed my obligation and haven't discriminated in how I conduct myself as NP.
| Reply by Marian_in_CA on 3/16/13 4:20pm
Msg #461604
Janet, I have the same thing... I have a letter/form that explains what a CW is, in plain English...along with the list of questions with yes/no check marks. It makes it very clear what they're doing and what their function is.
I've had people who were asked to be a CW, after reading it, decline to do it. One guy said, "Well, it's not that difficult to get this guy an ID, I've been offering to take him to the DMV for years. I'll gladly do it."
Another lady said, "Well, I don't really know her well enough to swear to this. I mean, I've been her neighbor for 4 years but I don't really know if this is true or not."
| Reply by LKT/CA on 3/16/13 5:30pm
Msg #461616
Exactly
I'll bet 98% of non-bedridden, non-wheelchair bound, ambulatory people who don't have ID is due to laziness...and exactly what these CW's stated (a. don't *really* know the person, and it's not that difficult for the guy to get ID and I've been offering to take them) applies to those 98% of folks.
When CWs are used in cases I've handled, it was for a senior who was either bedridden, wheelchair bound, nursing home, or hospice, whose DL expired forever ago. I was comfortable applying CWs in those cases. But for the lazy....NO. I had one lady, who's mother had a personal driver take her wherever she wanted, state she simply didn't want to be bothered and the senior facility said to use CWs. She also said another notary she called told her the same thing I did - make an appt for mom to get a state ID card - FREE and good for TEN years and have the driver take her there and you meet her there.
| Reply by Marian_in_CA on 3/16/13 6:07pm
Msg #461630
Re: Exactly
Yeah... the majority of the time I've used CWs it has been the same - bedridden, hospitalized, disabled, elderly, etc.
The oddest was the lady I explained about, the one who had the arrest warrant and was turning herself in. It was a long story, and she was on the run with her children. Think about it for a minute.... Anyway, when she decided to turn herself in with her attorney, she needed to be sure that the children and other items were situated and wouldn't be taken by social services or end up in the hands of a certain person/people who may have otherwise had a claim to them without the paperwork
The attorney had it all set up and the CWs they brought in were beyond reproach. I actually knew one of the witnesses personally and the attorney was referred to me by an attorney I regularly work for, so I was not concerned about the legitimacy of the situation. Plus, when I spoke to the woman, she was very clear in what she wanted and what was happening.
I think most of us can tell when somebody is clearly able to obtain ID, but I also keep an open mind in that I don't really know the whole situation. Frankly, I don't want to know, either. If they can supply CWs who, after reading my paper, still want to do it... then I'm okay with it... provided I'm satisfied that there aren't any other reasons to believe the person isn't who they claim to be. Just as I would with any other form of ID.
Plus, every situation is different. For some people, getting to the DMV is easy. For others, not so much. Where I live, for instance, the nearest DMV office is an 45-60 minutes away. Some people simply can't make that trip, for any number of possible reasons. But still... my opinion about what they can do is irrelevant when I'm not the one swearing to the facts. My opinion only matters for applying the satisfactory evidence rule, which really has nothing to do with whether the person has the ability to obtain another form of ID.
| Reply by LKT/CA on 3/16/13 6:28pm
Msg #461636
Re: Exactly
You bring up an excellent point, Marian. Location (city, desert, country, mountains) could be an issue. Being in the city, where households typically include extended family (grandma, uncles, aunts cousins), it's easy for me to believe that it's NOT difficult or impossible to get to the DMV. There isn't a DMV on every corner - they're spread out - but they're accessible. And with an appointment, it's quicker than just walking in.
I'm perplexed when someone *doesn't* have ID....who can survive in California with no ID? LOL....you need one for everything. You return merchandise to the store - even WITH A RECEIPT - the store demands ID. Unless someone never steps foot outdoors - ever - how can they transact ANY business without ID???
| Reply by VT_Syrup on 3/16/13 7:08pm
Msg #461638
getting ID & other driving
Like LKT don't really know how people can function without ID, but I have seen how hard it is for people with marginal finances to visit any office for any reason, including the DMV. They can't often can't get a ride. They can't afford to take time off from work, because the kind of jobs they have don't provide vacation days. I volunteer with a disaster relief organization, and I remember a person who couldn't get to the office so we could give her money. I think we ended up sending a pair of volunteers to her. Another person, about 19 years old, bragged about how he had never let his learner's permit, junior operator's permit, or regular license expire, as if that were a significant accomplishment. He was setting aside money so he could renew his license this spring.
Of course, this sort of thing doesn't come up as much with loan signings, because homeowners aren't usually living hand-to-mouth to the degree that some non-owners are.
| Reply by Marian_in_CA on 3/16/13 7:44pm
Msg #461643
Re: getting ID & other driving
That's a great point... and with GNW, I think we see this more, especially in this economy. Some people have jobs that prevent them from getting to the DMV during business hours, and they can't get time off work to go... either because they're afraid to ask for fear of losing their job or they can't afford to take the time off, even a few hours.
I get that... so I try to be more compassionate. But yeah... I seriously don't understand how anyone can get by without ID these days. Last year, when my ID expired and I didn't have the new card yet... my life was a disaster. I'd renewed it, so my driver's license was valid, but they were refusing to send the actual ID until I retook my photo... and then had to take it again... it was a ridiculous fight that ended up being totally pointless. I went 4-5 months with a valid ID card because of it. I think that's another reason why I'm more open to this kind of thing... because sometimes, the lack of valid ID can't always be fixed with a trip to the DMV. There could always be extenuating circumstances that, frankly, are none of our business.
I know that, last year, if I needed something notarized during the time I lacked the valid ID and I brought credible witnesses... just to have the notary say, "Nope," I'd be pretty angry.
| Reply by LKT/CA on 3/16/13 8:07pm
Msg #461644
Re: getting ID & other driving
I've held jobs 9 - 5 jobs where it's next to impossible to get time off but if its for the reason of renewing your driver's license? The boss "figures something out"....because after all, one of the job requirements is reliable transportation - and that doesn't mean just the vehicle in working order or taking the bus or a cab. It means a valid driver's license - and an expired one means you cannot drive yourself to the job. So believe, for a DRIVER'S LICENSE.....the boss "figures out something" so the employee can get to the DMV.
| Reply by Marian_in_CA on 3/16/13 8:15pm
Msg #461647
Re: getting ID & other driving
"one of the job requirements is reliable transportation"
That's never been a job requirement for me... at least, not until I started working for myself. They didn't care how you got there... just that you showed up on time.
I think most reasonable employers would try to make it work... but I also think some people are afraid to ask because they may fear for their job, promotions or whatever. I had a job like that once, and it was pretty much common knowledge that if you needed time "off" to deal with stuff like that... you didn't ask... you just called in sick and used a sick day. If you started asking for time off, no matter the reason, they used it against you in your reviews and assumed you weren't "dedicated" to the job...and a whole lot of similar nonsense. It was not a positive environment, and I'm thrilled I got laid off when I did.
That's also why I won't ever work in an office like that ever again. I cannot handle office politics.
| Reply by LKT/CA on 3/16/13 8:30pm
Msg #461651
Well, I certainly hope it works out for....
James, if he decides to take the appt. Though I have to say, if someone called me with thet parameters James mentioned in his OP: 1. GNW..Client to lose almost seven figures to State Controller (unclaimed inheritance) on Tuesday.; 2. Has no valid ID; 3. In drug rehab; 4. Relative wants to use two creditable witnesses to process forms/paperwork..........I'd foresee this appt as being a royal PITA and would refer the caller to the UPS Store.
Thankfully, <big grin> being a *mobile* notary is OUR choice and not a requirement of the SOS.
| Reply by Moneyman/TX on 3/17/13 11:46am
Msg #461709
Re: getting ID & other driving
I agree.
I have found that most bosses will try to work with someone for something like needing to take time off to get a valid DL. It's not like it would be an issue that would come up every other month. Regardless of different management styles, the vast majorities of bosses are not a-holes just for the sake of being one.
Some people don't have a bank account and cash their paychecks, which requires a valid ID. If a boss cannot comprehend that if "Joe" cannot cash his check this week, he won't have to worry about "Joe" taking time off next week. He will have moved on to another job, after he quit and took care of his ID issues. How long would anyone work for no pay? A check that can't be cashed is no better than a "Good Job!" smiley face sticker.
| Reply by 101livescan on 3/16/13 3:49pm
Msg #461596
I agree with Marian. It would be added confidence if one of the witnesses could be clergy, but it certainly is not necessary. It is always befuddling to see people waiting til the 13th hour on such important and financially implicating details. Life changing.
Good luck. Hopefully the client is not too drug damaged, is coherent, aware and comprehensive.
| Reply by MikeC/TX on 3/16/13 8:14pm
Msg #461646
1. GNW..Client to lose almost seven figures to State Controller (unclaimed inheritance) on Tuesday.
This is known as "escheat" -the property is transferred to the state, because there is no one else to legally claim it. It's basically the same thing if you buy a gift card with an expiration date but don't use it - that money goes to the state for safekeeping.
However, that does not mean the state immediately gets to keep the money. It becomes "unclaimed funds", and your client has every right to prove his claim to that money. The process may be a bit more complicated (for one thing, a valid ID would be necessary), but he certainly hasn't lost the money - he just needs to prove his claim.
There are several websites that deal with unclaimed funds and how to claim them - some will do it for a fee, but you can do it on your own for free...
| Reply by Notarysigner on 3/17/13 8:17am
Msg #461669
Re: I just checked the Ca. site I have 0.46c there.
It is an interesting site. I saw a few people I know with funds available but nothing over $80 bucks. Glad I checked it out. Thanks
| Reply by Moneyman/TX on 3/17/13 11:20am
Msg #461703
TX has $0.32 of mine.
Can only be claimed by mailing a request in to Austin. First class stamp cost more than that. I decided to donate it (or at least the interest off of it) to the state. LOL
| Reply by Moneyman/TX on 3/17/13 11:29am
Msg #461707
James, was this a question on that recent phone quiz?
Are you trying to crowdsource the answer to determine if the answer you gave him was the correct one? 
| Reply by Notarysigner on 3/17/13 11:40am
Msg #461708
Re: James, was this a question on that recent phone quiz?
Naw, haven't talked to him (client?) yet. It was his Mother supposedly. I told her not to give me their names until they were ready to confirm appointment. After 15 secs I lose interest in these GNW/SS phone conversations.
| Reply by Moneyman/TX on 3/17/13 11:49am
Msg #461710
After 15 secs I lose interest in these GNW/SS phone ... :-) n/m
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