Posted by CJ on 5/5/13 9:51am
Msg #468799

Signature by mark story

The job sheet stated that this was going to be a seller’s set of docs with signature by mark, and two witnesses would be there. The agent was going to bring the docs. I got there before the agent and met the seller - a nice lady who was a quadriplegic. She could not move anything except to talk. I asked her about the sale and she was completely aware and competent.

One of the witnesses, I guess the health-care worker, pulled out a signature stamp and said we could use that. I did not anticipate that, so I was caught off guard. I said I did not think it was lawful to use the stamp. The health-care worker said the only other alternative would be to put the pen in her mouth and hold up the paper to her face. That sounded legal, but a lot of trouble. (I know we don’t evaluate our jobs by how easy or complicated they are, I was just thinking “wow, this is going to be a LOT of work”.)

The agent arrived. He was a nice, older man who seemed experienced and knowledgeable. I said that I did not think it would be legal for us to use the stamp, so we would need to put the pen in her mouth. He said we only need to do signature by mark for the notarized docs, and that the title company has already said they would accept the stamp for all the other signatures.

I had her sign the journal with “signature by mark”, and the two documents that needed notarizing (the Grant Deed and the Trust Certificate). Then the witnesses passed around the papers and added their signatures according to the notary handbook. Then the health-care worker used the stamp on all the other pages while the agent explained them to the seller. It was very easy.

Afterwards, the seller said she wanted to show me her house, so the health-care worker pushed her in the wheelchair from room to room and they told me about each room. It was an ordinary, middle class house, but it’s always interesting to see people’s homes. I love art (I’m an aspiring oil painter), and I always pay close attention to art on the walls. The seller had many large, beautiful watercolors on the walls. I looked closely as I was passing one to see if it was an original or a print, and I saw that it was an original with the seller’s signature. She had been an accomplished watercolor artist before whatever happened that made her quadriplegic. There were also many limited-edition prints on the wall of her work. I asked if she was still selling them, and she said yes. It is very sad to me that she can no longer paint, but I am happy that she was so good, and that her work is still selling. I just wanted to share all of this.

Reply by 101livescan on 5/5/13 10:06am
Msg #468803

What a trooper this lady is! Good on you, Carolyn.

Reply by pdl/cali on 5/5/13 2:48pm
Msg #468827

Nice story to read on a Sunday, nice job

Reply by NVLSlady/VA on 5/5/13 7:20pm
Msg #468843

Nice experience. And if you're into social media (for marketing purposes), consider sharing. You may just connect with many disabled (potential) clients!

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 5/5/13 7:55pm
Msg #468848

From what I understand , it would have been perfectly legal

for the caregiver to have utilized the stamp , or even to have signed the lady's name, SO LONG as the caregiver was specifically authorized by the lady to sign the dox on her behalf
See below based on very quick research of the question.

http://ezinearticles.com/?Assisted-Signatures:-How-to-Execute-a-Document-When-the-Client-Needs-Help-Holding-the-Pen&id=7190912

Reply by Notarysigner on 5/5/13 8:21pm
Msg #468850

Re: From what I understand , it would have been perfectly legal

Thanks for the post Bob, this is interesting.....I did a little research after reading this only typed in Ca elder law instead and the results show reference to New York Law and your link posted plus

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1141089?uid=3739560&uid=2&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21102163093521

I do quite a few of these and although atty's are usually present and/or there are creditable witnesses available the question of the signer actually making the mark on their own vs with assistance has never been adequately defined. i would think giving an oath would show additional support to the signature. Of course someone else would have to request (jurat) that. Hmm thanks

Reply by rengel/CA on 5/6/13 11:20am
Msg #468896

Not in California, Bob.

Page 14 of the 2013 California notary Public Handbook addresses this. Nowhere does it say that someone may sign for the person or that they can use a stamp. They must be able to make a mark in someway or else they will need to get a POA or conservatorship. So the non-notarized documents can be signed anyway they want, but the notarized docs need to be signed by the person and that person alone.
My .02


Signature by Mark
When the signer of an instrument cannot write (sign) his or her name, that person may sign
the document by mark. (Civil Code section 14) The requirements for notarizing a signature
by mark are as follows:
• The person signing the document by mark must be identified by the notary public by
satisfactory evidence. (Civil Code section 1185)
• The signer’s mark must be witnessed by two persons who must subscribe their own names
as witnesses on the document. One witness should write the person’s name next to the
person’s mark and then the witness should sign his or her name as a witness. The witnesses
are only verifying that they witnessed the individual make his or her mark on the document.
A notary public is not required to identify the two persons who witnessed the signing by
mark or to have the two witnesses sign the notary public’s journal. Exception: If the
witnesses were acting in the capacity of credible witnesses in establishing the identity of
the person signing by mark, then the witnesses’ signatures must be entered in the notary
public’s journal.
• The signer by mark must include his or her mark in the notary public journal. To qualify
as a signature, the making of the mark in the notary public journal, must be witnessed by
an individual who must write the person’s name next to the mark and then sign his or her
own name as a witness.

Reply by SharonMN on 5/6/13 3:49pm
Msg #468947

OK in MN

The stamp would've be OK in Minnesota, if affixed by another in the presence of the disabled person. I've done a signing that way.