Posted by walthtz on 5/19/13 3:14pm
Msg #470518

Signatures

What do people suggest?
When you tell the people to sign as their name appears & they say they sign as the ID shows.
In a lot of cases it is un-readable. Then you get the companies that state it is not their signature; even though you the notary watched them sign the documents.
Some of the companies want the people to sign as if they are in first grade, but the people refuse.
Then we get our pay shorted or we lose the client cause the signatures are not up to the satandards of the company that hired us.
A Notary is supposed to witness the signature & if we are doing that, then how can we be in fault?
There has to be a happy medium someplace...........................

Reply by ananotary on 5/19/13 3:19pm
Msg #470520

If the signature is not readable, I don't worry about it. If it is readable I tell them it has to be signed as printed. If they refuse I would call the hiring party. If the signing continues I document who authorized me to continue in my close out report/ email. In 9 years I can't remember more than a handful of times this has happened. Right now I get more people so happy that I am there and that the process is almost done. This is way easier than the days of crooked loan officers and bad loans.

Reply by LKT/CA on 5/19/13 3:25pm
Msg #470521

MY signature is illegible, therefore, telling ME to sign as my name is printed would be futile. I've had the same squiggly signature for 23 years and would NOT sign each name distinctly clear. As a borrower, I'd just have to deal with the TC.

What I do as a NSA is to inform the borrowers of the TC's instructions. I ALWAYS get a copy of the borrowers ID to return with the package - whether the TC instructions ask for it or not. This way, the TC can see that the squiggly signature on the docs match the squiggly signature on the ID. Also, I've had borrowers whose signature is printed. Their ID shows the same.

When I see a borrower's ID and see that the signature IS legible, and they don't normally sign with the middle initial, if the docs show preprinted name with initials, I will ask them to sign with the middle initial. I've never had a problem with a borrower objecting to that if they have a legible signature. I think including the ID copy - placed on top of the stack - saves me the trouble of a phone call from the TC to complain about how the borrowers signed the docs.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 5/19/13 4:01pm
Msg #470526

I seriously doubt any lender or tc could show any legal documentation that states that someone's signature must be legible. There must be some reason that lender's want documents signed as name is printed, but I don't believe that it needs to be legible to meet that requirement. (But I'm not an attorney, so this is advice is worth what you're paying for it...) This topic has been done to death here, but the fact that the concept of what a "signature" is varies greatly from culture to culture means that it is likely to be an ongoing headache for those of us tasked with collecting the "signatures" for as long as we're out there collecting them...

To directly address your question, I only worry about this in two situations I can think of. One would be if the person DOES have a legible signature and they are clearly leaving out a middle initial (or adding one in) so that it varies from the document. The second one would be if they have a "squiggle" or something that looks like just a first initial, for example, rather than their entire first name.

I ask them if that is how they sign "John Q Borrower" (or whatever is typed under the line) and if they say yes, I'm OK with that (and I might include a note with the docs stating that the borrowers stated that was their full signature as typed). If they say that that's just their first initial (e.g. "J. Q. Borrower"), but that's how they always sign their name, I'd advise them that this might affect the funding of their loan unless they sign the whole thing. Again, if they refuse, I'd write out a note saying that they were advised that their signature might be considered undersigned and that they were advised that it could affect the funding of their loan. If you have them sign the note, you're off the hook if it does get kicked back. But I wouldn't do that for signature that was simply illegible, but the borrower claimed it to be how they signed their name "as typed".

Hope this helps.

Reply by MW/VA on 5/20/13 8:22am
Msg #470558

Ditto, Janet. I heard a story from a woman who said the

notary actually argued with her & insisted her name be signed legibly. IMO the whole point of having a notary there is that we see their ID & witness them signing the document. Many people don't have a legible signature. As long as their squiggle represents the full name I don't have an issue with it, and have never had docs rejected because of it.

Reply by desktopfull on 5/20/13 10:51am
Msg #470569

Had a company request a legible signature, and the borrower

called and asked them if they wanted their signature or their name just written out, because that was two different things. They told them that their signature represented them as an individual and that it wasn't legible to prevent fraud. The TC backed down.

One thing I don't understand is why people want to sign their name one way and take title with a completely different name and then complain about having to sign the way they took title when their signature is legible.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 5/20/13 4:45pm
Msg #470640

Re: Had a company request a legible signature, and the borrower

"why people want to sign their name one way and take title with a completely different name..."

My suspicion is that the way they take title isn't decided by them. It just ends up that way depending on how some form gets filled in along the way by either the real estate agent on a sales contract or by the LO on a loan application (which may just be copied from a sales contract). Just guessing... But at the point in time where it gets decided, the borrowers - unless they're unusually savvy - are likely focused on other pressing issues related to the purchase. Most people don't think about the implications, and the person helping them out also probably has their mind on other issues. (Like their commission? )

Again, just speculating, but maybe someone with more experience in that part of the process can chime in.

Reply by SharonMN on 5/20/13 9:16am
Msg #470564

I've never once had a complaint about the borrower's signature. I instruct them to sign as printed, but I'm not the signature police. If they have a very readable sig and the middle initial is obviously missing, I will ask them to insert the middle initial (if that's how the docs are drawn). But if the signature is a scribble, I'm not going to question it, and I've never had the TC or lender question it, either.

Reply by Notarysigner on 5/19/13 4:26pm
Msg #470528

I had a borrower who just signed "Q".....the LO and Hiring party both instructed me to let him sign that way. That was the only time I've had a borrower sign different than their name.
My Notary Journal, had their name as it appeared on the DL....NOT "Q"

Reply by Karla/OR on 5/19/13 4:50pm
Msg #470531

I compare their signature on their ID vs. how they signed my journal. I then show them a doc with their name typed on it. I tell them this is how it needs to be done from end to end of the package. This is what the lender/title is requiring of them and will prevent any issues down the line in that regard. Yeah, some grumble about it. I give them the choice of signing as is or signing it as they wish - putting the responsibility of a failed closing in their lap!! They usually think about it for a second and start signing as shown!!!

On ALL docs that DO NOT have the BO's name typed, I have them PRINT their name (above, below, wherever there is room for it) after signing the doc.

Reply by KarenVentura on 5/19/13 5:30pm
Msg #470533

I had this last week, he signed and you could not read it and then his wife signed and I repeated the instructions to sign as it is typed and she said I never sign with my middle initial and then he pipes up and says I didnt sign with my middle initial I said well I can't tell what yours says, I can tell what her's says. So on the AKA form I asked him to sign with his middle initial and he tried it looked like he was in 3rd grade trying to write in cursive. It was horrible and I was embarrassed. So we pulled the buyer copy and I had him sign just like he did thru out the docs. I submitted the package with a copy of both ID's (she did sign with her middle initial) and I never heard anything back. So I am guessing it was it ok.

Reply by Rita Adu on 5/19/13 6:16pm
Msg #470536

Whenever this happens, I ask them "so with this signature, are you signing it as John B Smith"? If they say yes, then I move on. A signature is a signature.

On another funny note - I once had a couple, and the wife was used to signing the name on everything for the husband. One time when the husband attempted to cash a check, it was rejected b/c it did not match the other signatures. They were used to seeing the wife's signature on everything. I thought that was hilarious.

Reply by jnew on 5/19/13 10:02pm
Msg #470543

Anytime I have a signature which is indistinguishable from the printed name, I make a copy of the ID with my Vupoint Scanner. I then present a generic signature a/k/a affidavit and have the signer sign his name opposite the printed name and all indistinguishable variants from the package. This affidavit is kept on file permanently as proof. If challenged, I can present the copy of the license, the signed affidavit and a copy of the signed signature page of the mortgage (also scanned). I have had instructions that I am to ask for a legible signature. If the identification document is not signed legibly, I cannot verify the person's full identity for the purposes of notarizing since I cannot verify that the signature applied matches an identity document..

Reply by SharonMN on 5/20/13 9:19am
Msg #470565

Jnew - what? I think your process is totally overkill and probably illegal.

"If the identification document is not signed legibly, I cannot verify the person's full identity for the purposes of notarizing since I cannot verify that the signature applied matches an identity document.."

Why not? If the sig you witness matches the sig on the ID and the ID is the right name of the person you're supposed to have sign, what difference does it make if the signature is a scribble, the name neatly written in cursive, or a pictograph? You can notarize.

Reply by Jim/AL on 5/20/13 11:38am
Msg #470571

Is this an advertisement for Vupoint jnew? lol n/m

Reply by Bear900/CA on 5/19/13 10:42pm
Msg #470544

Here's a good prior discussion...

Msg #433366

Reply by Exclusive Mobile Notary on 5/20/13 1:38am
Msg #470549

The first thing you do is have them sign their name in your book. If you can read the signature, then you know you will need to tell them to sign as indicated on the signature line of the docs.

If their signature is a scribble, I tell them... if you tell me your signature says "Wayne S. Clemons Jr" as indicated on the signature line, then so be it. I and no one else can not argue with someones own signature. It is their unique mark.

The only time you will run into a problem is when their signature is completely legible.


On a side note, I would love to be the borrower on a Provident loan. I would change my signature on every doc and then see how the argument goes...

Reply by Luckydog on 5/20/13 5:29am
Msg #470553

I was told by a few title companies it needs to be signed as stated regardless of signature on DL. Because we are notaries witnessing their signature it is legal that way, and to be recorded, their signature needs to be a legible in most cases. Cash purchases are not so picky. Also most of the time in your notary instructions it will state "must be signed as shown", that is not a scribble, or abbreviated name, which backs you up at the table.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 5/20/13 8:12am
Msg #470557

I'd say around three-fourths of the deeds and mortgages I've notarized had at least one illegible signature. None of them failed to record. Also, I would be surprised if recording officers are pickier about mortgages than cash purchases.

Reply by ananotary on 5/20/13 9:05am
Msg #470561

Provident

On ALL Provident loans I have been the notary on, if their signature is not legible that is how I have them sign all docs. Never had one come back. Knock on wood!!

Reply by Jim/AL on 5/20/13 11:42am
Msg #470572

Love when docs go back and forth from John Quincy Public to

John Q Public to John Public and it is not just TC docs one way and lender docs the other...they bounce around 2or3 ways throughout.
Love my job!

Reply by Kathleen Bagley on 5/20/13 1:30pm
Msg #470592

Great questions - I go by state law and usually more is acceptable. Less is not -of course.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 5/20/13 2:06pm
Msg #470603

I've only seen one state law saying anything about how much of their name a signers name must be TYPED (or neatly printed) when signing a notarized document. Louisiana requires that the surname be spelled out, not just an initial. Also, the first name or a middle name must be spelled out. So John Tolkien, and J R Reuel Tolkien are OK but J R R Tolkien is not acceptable.

I've never seen any law that specifies exactly how similar the name on a document must be to the name on ID for the notary to notarize. In particular, no one on any forum I follow has ever found a law or binding regulation that supports the mythical more-not-less rule.

I've also never found a rule that says what must be contained in the handwritten signature. So if the deed says "John R R Tolkien" at the beginning, under the signature line, and in the notarial certificate, but the handwritten signature just says "John", I can't point to a law that says that is invalid.

Various states do have (different) standards saying how well the name on a later deed must match the deed that the grantor acquired title under in order to give effective notice to people who are searching the land records. This seems to refer to how the name is printed, not how it is written in the signature.

So if you have found a law that actually requires the more-not-less standard I'm sure many of us would like to read it.