Posted by JeffC/CA on 10/7/13 9:21pm
Msg #487333

Protecting Journal/Information--Jail Signings

How is one supposed to protect his/her journal during a jail signing?

I performed a jail signing recently, and had to hand the journal through a little slot to a deputy who then just handed the whole thing through another little slot to the prisoner. I couldn't tell from where I was sitting that the deputy didn't have direct contact with the prisoner. So the journal was out of my and the deputy's control. His family called me, not him. I never talked to him before hand. I didn't even know if he had agreed to sign a POA or how he would act or react.

He (prisoner) didn't look at any other pages than the one I prepared for him, but he could have just had a field day with it. I was imagining the worst! Copy a few D/L numbers and names, draw some pictures, rip out a few pages, ______________(fill in the blank with your own worst nightmare scenario.) Yuck!

I don't really know how much of a problem this really is, whether or not anything would be allowed to escalate, but I know it would be impossible to keep a prisoner from looking at anything he/she wanted to in the journal.

Sorry, no, I didn't do an orange button search. I needed to say something, so I just started typing.

Anyone have any ideas or stories to share?

Reply by VT_Syrup on 10/7/13 9:29pm
Msg #487334

Include a new journal in the cost of the notarization. Use a brand new journal for the appointment. Stop using the partially filled old journal.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 10/7/13 9:50pm
Msg #487337

That's one approach. Or you could possibly just start a new page and put binder clips around pages already signed - but that's still not foolproof.

Frankly, though, that's among the reasons I no longer do jail signings. Our handbook says that we're to maintain exclusive control of our journals at all times - and in some jails, that's just not possible.

Reply by jba/fl on 10/7/13 9:50pm
Msg #487338

CA prohibits that, but, IMHO, a second journal for just such notarizations only might be the way to go. Just jails....practical, sensible....

but, we are talking the land of........(I won't say it but you probably know it)

Reply by JeffC/CA on 10/7/13 10:17pm
Msg #487340

I love this forum!
I think using a new journal might just be the way to go.
Thanks everyone.

Reply by Exclusive Mobile Notary on 10/7/13 10:26pm
Msg #487341

$200 for the first page that needs to be notarized is worth the extra hassle...

Reply by janCA on 10/7/13 11:07pm
Msg #487347

You cannot use a separate journal for jail signings. The dates have to be sequential for the line items.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 10/7/13 11:28pm
Msg #487348

I suppose, though, that unless someone finds themselves doing frequent jail signings, they could end their current journal, start a new one to keep it sequential, then continue on with that one. If they finish it before they get another jail signing, great. If not, they could start another one again. They'd also want to factor in the cost of starting a new journal each time when calculating their fees.

One possibly bigger concern in those types of situations, though, is the type of ID the inmate has. The wrist bands used in some county jails aren't acceptable under CA law.

Reply by notarydi/CA on 10/8/13 8:25am
Msg #487357

had pretty much the same experience. Was not comfortable with the process. The second one that I did, the deputy buzzed me back and gave me some vague directions to the appropriate cell block. I got lost, and actually, was getting a little scared. Finally, a deputy found me and escorted me to where the inmate was. He said I never should have been buzzed back and allowed to wander unescorted to the secure area. In this scenario, I was allowed to pass the document and my book to the inmate for signature. My only other signing at the jail was the same as your experience. Have not gone back for more business as I found the visitors coming to see "their beloveds" were scarier than the inmates!

Reply by 101livescan on 10/8/13 8:59am
Msg #487362

Not my first choice of work. I will only go if I'm asked to by title/escrow/loan officer, not relatives or friends. Too much time, and people are flaky.

Reply by Note_this_CA on 10/9/13 12:08am
Msg #487472

You may be over thinking this. Here is what the CA handbook says:

A notary public is required to keep one active sequential journal at a time of all acts performed
as a notary public. The journal must be kept in a locked and secured area (such as a lock box
or locked desk drawer), under the direct and exclusive control of the notary public.

Notice it says "must be kept in a locked....under the direct and exclusive control of the notary public"

Obviously any time you hand your journal to someone to sign, whether in a home, an office or Starbucks, you have "lost control". Anyone can damage your journal at any time.

An inmate is probably more likely to behave than some of the irate signers you have encountered.

We don't have a perfect system.

Reply by Notarysigner on 10/8/13 9:27am
Msg #487364

Jeff see your p/m no need for a new Journal.

Reply by Darlin_AL on 10/8/13 11:47am
Msg #487383

Can the "journal" be a spiral notebook? if it has the info? n/m

Reply by Yoli/CA on 10/8/13 11:56am
Msg #487385

Re: Can the "journal" be a spiral notebook? if it has the info?

In California, you can generate your own journal provided it contains all required data.

Reply by janCA on 10/8/13 11:57am
Msg #487386

Re: Can the "journal" be a spiral notebook? if it has the info?

In Ca,yes,as long as it has all the pertnent information required by our SOS.

Reply by Darlin_AL on 10/8/13 12:02pm
Msg #487387

There ya go! Problem solved and thanks for posting it n/m

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/8/13 12:08pm
Msg #487389

Not quite sure how this solves the problem..

journal has to be bound and has to be a sequential journal. Can't keep 2 journals. Don't see how spiral bound avoids having to hand the entire journal over to the guards in a jail setting.

Maybe I'm missing something.

Reply by Darlin_AL on 10/8/13 12:21pm
Msg #487392

Put pg from notebook in sequence in existing journal n/m

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/8/13 12:28pm
Msg #487396

Not sure how journals are everywhere else...

they're not required here...but in CA, and many other states, the journals have to be bound - that means all pages..you don't insert a single page into the existing journal.

Reply by JeffC/CA on 10/8/13 1:58pm
Msg #487402

Re: Not sure how journals are everywhere else...

I've not read anywhere in CA laws/workbook that journals need to be bound. Sequential, yes. Maybe sequential implies bound?

Reply by Notarysigner on 10/8/13 2:03pm
Msg #487403

NOT BOUND..Sequential yes n/m

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/8/13 2:10pm
Msg #487405

Apologies - I thought I'd read somewhere (most probably

here) that they were to be bound...sorry..

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/8/13 2:13pm
Msg #487406

HAH!! I *knew* I read it somewhere..

it's in OUR manual...lol. - should be bound AND sequential

Numerous notary journals are available on the market today, and they all have similar features. We recommend that your journal be bound (not loose-leaf) and have consecutively numbered pages, so that a page could not be removed without being detected.

Reply by Darlin_AL on 10/8/13 3:00pm
Msg #487414

OK, so tape it in already! That entry is its own pg, or tape

it over a blank entry area in sequence on whatever page you're on. Cripes, that's a lot better way to go than having strangers handling a "live" journal!!

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/8/13 4:15pm
Msg #487427

I can't believe you said that...good grief. n/m

Reply by JanetK_CA on 10/8/13 2:16pm
Msg #487407

Re: Not sure how journals are everywhere else...

"Maybe sequential implies bound?"

I would agree with that. If it isn't bound, i.e. if pages can easily be moved around, added or deleted, that leaves open to challenge whether or not the journal was maintained 100% sequentially or not.

Reply by Notarysigner on 10/8/13 2:38pm
Msg #487410

you have a date and time,..you

have you call records, email contacts, invoice.....kinda minimizes fraud I would say

Reply by janCA on 10/8/13 3:17pm
Msg #487419

Re: you have a date and time,..you

You CANNOT keep two journals. You can only have ONE active sequential journal in California. Operative word here is ACTIVE.

Reply by Notarysigner on 10/8/13 5:59pm
Msg #487430

Re: you have a date and time,..you

BS....5 P.M. IS 5 P.M. 5:30 IS 5:30 That's "sequential" and Operative is YOUR OPINION! Just like what I said is mine!

Reply by janCA on 10/8/13 9:21pm
Msg #487465

Re: you have a date and time,..you

Holy Moly, James, this is not an opinion, it's stated in the handbook. One active journal.

Reply by Notarysigner on 10/9/13 7:57am
Msg #487475

" Operative word here is ACTIVE. "

That does NOT appear in the handbook. To me Active means the ONLY one you're are using at THAT present time. Sorry for the confuzzion.

Reply by janCA on 10/9/13 8:08am
Msg #487479

Re: " Operative word here is ACTIVE. "

Page 9 of the handbook. This is a 2012 book.

"A notary public is required to keep one active sequential journal at a time of all acts performed as a notary public."

I guess you can twist the meaning of that anyway you want, but I'd check with the SOS.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/9/13 8:52am
Msg #487481

Re: " Operative word here is ACTIVE. "

Same thing in the 2013 handbook - page 9 - not sure what you mean, James, that it's not there..

"A notary public is required to keep one active sequential journal at a time of all acts performed as a notary public."

http://www.sos.ca.gov/business/notary/forms/notary-handbook-2013.pdf

Reply by Notarysigner on 10/9/13 9:35am
Msg #487485

I responded to JanetK'S POST Msg #487407 and

somehow it went south.

"......that leave open to challenge whether or not the journal was maintained 100% sequential or not."

My respond ( have you call records, email contacts, invoice.....kinda minimizes fraud I would say ) was to THAT.

It appears you are addressing the issue of multiple journals.....I am not stupid, I know you can't do that.

If that's twisted, then so be it.

Reply by Gary Williamson on 10/9/13 8:55pm
Msg #487575

Re: I responded to JanetK'S POST Msg #487407 and

I have performed 20 to 25 jail signings and never had a problem with the inmate looking over the other pages or tampering with my journal. I always have an officer standing by the inmate when they sign and in most cases holding the journal for the inmate to sign so they do not make off with the pen.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 10/10/13 3:26pm
Msg #487655

Re: I responded to JanetK'S POST Msg #487407 and

I have to agree with Jan, James. My personal belief - and what I think is a common understanding amongst CA notaries - is that there should be no possible way to manipulate the sequence of pages in a notary journal. I don't think the other items you mention would stand up in a court of law if a notary journal entry ever came up as evidence to prove when a notarization took place.

To me, that means one journal at a time, in dated sequence, and bound in order to prevent it being disassembled and reassembled in any possible way. IMO, that should help prevent backdating, then fraudulently modifying records.