Posted by Paula Yakey on 10/23/13 11:32am
Msg #489328

Signatur affidavit and a POA?

Can a signature affidavit be signed with a POA?

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/23/13 11:34am
Msg #489329

Not in FL - and AIF cannot swear to facts known by the

principal.

Reply by SDSigner on 10/23/13 11:39am
Msg #489331

Re: Not in FL - and AIF cannot swear to facts known by the

So how would you resolve it? Leave it blank?

Reply by Paula Yakey on 10/23/13 11:48am
Msg #489335

Re: Not in FL - and AIF cannot swear to facts known by the

That is what I have always done...and yet FASS gave me a quality issue for it. Also for initials they said I did that wrong as well. I have borrower initial with initial of co borrower's initial by borrower initial POA...and they said that was wrong. This is the way I have always done it with every other TC for over 10 years and never have had a problem with the signing and yet FASS says it is wrong. Then they dinged me because they said the verbiage was wrong yet we signed the way it was printed on the document. Borrower by Co borrower their attorney in fact....which was typed under signature line! Gosh I am mad!

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/23/13 11:47am
Msg #489334

Affidavit denotes jurat..if AIF, can only be acknowledged n/m

Reply by Paula Yakey on 10/23/13 11:50am
Msg #489336

Re: Affidavit denotes jurat..if AIF, can only be acknowledged

So you put an acknowledgment with it...whew color me embarrassed. Never thought of that.

Reply by Yoli/CA on 10/23/13 11:57am
Msg #489338

Re: Affidavit denotes jurat..if AIF, can only be acknowledged

In CA, it's not up to the notary to decide whether Jurat or Acknowledgment. However, it is also true that and AIF cannot swear as to the truthfulness of any document. That being said, it is up to the hiring party to decide if they want a document to be notarized using an Acknowledgment or simply not complete said document.

JMO

Reply by Calnotary on 10/23/13 11:59am
Msg #489340

Re: Affidavit denotes jurat..if AIF, can only be acknowledged

IF the affidavit says "sworn" how can you replace it with an ack? And if you replace it with an ack. YOU ARE NOT supposed to choose the notary certificate. This question still on the air.

Reply by SDSigner on 10/23/13 12:02pm
Msg #489342

Re: Affidavit denotes jurat..if AIF, can only be acknowledged

That's a tough one, I would see if the lender instructions gives you answers on their POA's.

Reply by Calnotary on 10/23/13 12:05pm
Msg #489345

Re: Affidavit denotes jurat..if AIF, can only be acknowledged

Then if you say the AIF can not swear for the principal then you are entering to UPL?

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/23/13 12:06pm
Msg #489347

Nope..I'm saying I, the notary, cannot complete a jurat

for this document.

Reply by LKT/CA on 10/23/13 12:11pm
Msg #489349

Re: Nope..I'm saying I, the notary, cannot complete a jurat

Just playing devils advocate and rethinking things, if an AIF "acts as if" they were the principal, why can't the AIF "swear to something as if they were the principal"? Not questioning you or FL notary law, but just putting that question out there for nitpicking/hair splitting/brain picking.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/23/13 12:18pm
Msg #489352

AIF can sign on their behalf...can act in their stead

in business/banking/real estate matters, etc etc

BUT the AIF cannot state as true things that are known only to the principal - the AIF cannot take an oath for the principal - they can only take an oath for themselves.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/23/13 12:44pm
Msg #489371

I think it depends on the oath...

And the contents of the document. Here in CA, a jurat only means that the person signing is swearing that the contents of the documents are true to the best of their knowledge.

I would hope that somebody acting as AIF would, in fact, know if something is true or not.

Thankfully, here in CA that's more hand off for us. Ther responsibility is on the signer, not the notary. That notary's job is the identify the person signing and to issue and oath. POAs are completely meaningless to us. We're not allowed to use them, ask about them or bother with them.

Reply by LKT/CA on 10/23/13 2:29pm
Msg #489402

Re: I think it depends on the oath...

<<<Thankfully, here in CA that's more hand off for us. Ther responsibility is on the signer, not the notary.>>>

Based on that logic...and considering that a principal signer taking an oath is responsible if they're lying...I don't see why an AIF cannot take an oath on behalf of the principal, unless of course the notary laws categorically forbid it. If the handbook is silent, then I don't see why not. Running this by an attorney would probably be wise.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 10/23/13 4:40pm
Msg #489442

Re: I think it depends on the oath...

As far as California is concerned, I agree with Marian and Lisa on this one. It's the AIF's name that goes into the notary certificate. They are the ones taking the oath and signing for what they believe to be true. What they cannot do, obviously, is provide accurate alternate signatures for the other person. In theory, they could sign each variation using the AIF language as provided by the lender, but I don't see how that would be of any use to anyone. But again, that's not our call to make. We just have to be the ones to determine that the notary part complies with our own state law and that we follow any lender/title instruction that isn't in conflict with our own state law.

Reply by Susan Fischer on 10/23/13 8:53pm
Msg #489488

Bingo. You cannot give an oath for another. Period. n/m

Reply by Paula Yakey on 10/23/13 11:58am
Msg #489339

Re: Affidavit denotes jurat..if AIF, can only be acknowledged

Another question.. how do I attest to the fact on an acknowledgment that they are who they say the are...I have will not be able to look at a drivers license and the POA is only 1 witness?

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/23/13 12:04pm
Msg #489344

Can you rephrase Paula? I don't understand the question n/m

Reply by Paula Yakey on 10/23/13 12:16pm
Msg #489350

Re: Can you rephrase Paula? I don't understand the question

Yea typing to fast..
The acknowledgment states...that FASS sent me, as well as my states ack...personally know to me or proved on the basis of satisfactory evidence to be the person...
How do you notarize that with the borrower only being 1 witness and does not have a copy of co borrower's id?

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/23/13 12:20pm
Msg #489354

You're ID'ing the attorney-in-fact - not the borrower(s)

I think that's what you mean..

You use your state's acks and follow your state rules - not FASS's.

Reply by Paula Yakey on 10/23/13 12:25pm
Msg #489356

Re: You're ID'ing the attorney-in-fact - not the borrower(s)

Here is what I did. Borrower attorney in fact for Co Borrower on an APA. I think that will be OK as that is how it happened.
Thanks for all the help!

Reply by JanetK_CA on 10/24/13 4:12am
Msg #489517

Re: You're ID'ing the attorney-in-fact - not the borrower(s)

I only put on a certificate the name of the person who is actually personally appearing before me. So if the primary borrower is signing for the co-borrower as his/her AIF, I would only include the name of the primary borrower. In my state, the ack specifically says so and so, "who appeared before me". The co-borrower's name doesn't go anywhere in my ack certificate so there's no need for any identification for that person who isn't there and isn't signing anything.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/24/13 8:02am
Msg #489528

Here we can include capacity..so our certs would be

"personally appeared Jane Doe, individually, and Jane Doe as Attorney-in-Fact for John Doe"