Posted by Linda_in_IN on 10/19/13 10:02am
Msg #488742

Something new to discuss besides BGC--webcam notarizations

This discussion was first posted on LinkedIn. As much as the "other" discussion impacts how we as notaries do business, IMO this has the potential to make a much bigger impact. I just don't get how the statement can be backed up that these types of notarizations are accepted in all 50 states when they aren't. Where are they getting their facts?

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/documents-now-notarized-executed-online-123500567.html?goback=.gde_822037_member_5796996293817548803#!

Reply by VT_Syrup on 10/19/13 10:19am
Msg #488743

The service promoted in that regurgitated press release uses Virginia electronic notaries. Those notaries ARE allowed to use webcams under a bunch of rules that are probably strict, but the rules are such a horrible mess that I doubt anyone knows what they mean, east of all the creatures in the Virginia legislature who passed the bill.

There are many problems, including

1. I am highly skeptical that the notaries actually follow all the Virginia rules for webcam notarizations, although I can't be certain because I've never gone through the process and I can't figure out exactly what the rules mean.

2. The claim that the notarizations are accepted in all 50 states is based on the concept that an in-person notarization performed in Virginia by a Virginia notary would be accepted in all 50 states. But in my opinion, when a state like mine passes a law that says an oath or acknowledgement performed in other states are acceptable in my state, there is an implicit understanding that the notarial act in the other state bears a reasonable resemblance to the same act as it would be done in my state. It's conceivable that courts might decide that an acknowledgement taken by webcam is so different than an in-person acknowledgement that it isn't an acknowledgement at all, and thus might not be recognized in other states.

3. Obviously a webcam notarization can only be applied to an electronic document. But most uses of notarized documents require presenting a paper document to the recipient, such as recording a deed. I expect that some recipients will accept paper printouts of PDFs, and others will reject them because they do not bear wet signatures and seals.

Reply by Lee/AR on 10/19/13 10:25am
Msg #488744

Why do people keep falling for Nigerian scams? Same thing.

Apparently VA doesn't consider this twisting of facts important. Shame.

Reply by FGX/NJ on 10/19/13 10:44am
Msg #488746

webcam notarizations ID requirements Virginia



SATISFACTORY EVIDENCE OF THE SIGNER’S IDENTITY ELECTRONIC
NOTARIZATION
Remote notarization requires a very high threshold for identity assurance. Not only MUST there
be a video and audio feed, the notary public will be REQUIRED to assure the identity of the
signer by one of the following three options:
1) Personal knowledge. This is already allowed under Virginia law. Simply put, if
the notary knows the signer, that will satisfy this requirement.
2) Reliance on prior inperson
identity proofing by a third party such as an
employer, a law firm, or a bank. Otherwise known as antecedent proofing, this
security standard relies upon a prior trust relationship having been created
between the signer and a third party. This standard is gaining wide application in
electronic commerce.
3) The signer has a digital certificate that is authenticated either by (i) biometrics or
(ii) a Personal Identity Verification (PIV) or PIVI
card issued in conformance
with strict government standards from the National Institute of Standards and
Technology. The use of PIV and PIVI
cards is becoming more prevalent in the
public and private sectors. This is as trustworthy and reliable a security standard
as can be found currently. The federal government uses this standard in issuing
identifications to federal employees and government contractors as well for
trusting the identity of emergency first responders.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 10/19/13 10:53am
Msg #488749

Not all states:

http://www.sos.ca.gov/business/notary/customer-alert.htm

Reply by VT_Syrup on 10/19/13 12:16pm
Msg #488759

The page linked by Sylvia_FL only says that CA notaries are not allowed to do webcam notarizations; it doesn't say if Virginia webcam notarizations would be recognized in CA.

Reply by Notarysigner on 10/19/13 10:59am
Msg #488751

"......As long as the Docs are filed in Va."! BD

Reply by FGX/NJ on 10/19/13 11:02am
Msg #488752

Have sent e/m to SOS Notary Div. of Virginia inquiring if this web site meets the requirements of Va. law,

Reply by Linda_in_IN on 10/19/13 11:15am
Msg #488753

Let me rephrase the discussion . . .

Regarding webcam notarizations. (please humor an old lady and play along) I'm thinking client at at home or in office realizes they need a doc notarized. They internet search and find several options for notaries, one being you as a mobile notary and a option that sounds a lot easier with less drama and stress that involves doing this over the internet.

I know this is not recognized in all states. So please don't beat that dead horse. But there will come a day, when everyone else catches up with the technology, ESPECIALLY if these companies get the same lobbists and marketing gurus that are being used by other entities for other notarial related things. (Think about it. At what point would we, notaries thought that BGC would be a point of contention and angst?) So I ask again. How, if at all, do you see this as a POTENTIAL impact to your business? How would you counter this?

Reply by walthtz on 10/19/13 12:12pm
Msg #488758

Re: Let me rephrase the discussion . . .

You might think this is ok or even a good idea?. but tell me this.... One of the jobs of a notary is make sure the signer is not being forced into signing a document.
How do you, the notary know that someone on the the signers' end is not pointing a gun at the signer?
You don't. & therefore a VERY bad way of putting the Notary in jeopardy with the law.
Also, what VENU do u put on the Notary Document?
If you use where the signer is, then the Notary may not be licensed in that state & if You put the VENU where the Notary is, Then how do you make the statement: Before came ................?

Reply by VT_Syrup on 10/19/13 12:27pm
Msg #488763

Re: Let me rephrase the discussion . . .

1. I don't think Linda in IN really "know[s] this is not recognized in all states." Do you know of any instance where an entity that accepts electronically notarized documents refused to accept a document that was electronically notarized in Virginia because Virginia allows webcams?

2. If webcam notarizations somehow became generally accepted, and the electronic documents that result, or the paper printouts of them were accepted in almost every situation where a notarized document would be needed, I think the mobile notary business would be over with, just as there aren't many buggy whip manufacturers left. There would be no effective strategy to counter 24 hour per day sweatshops that would be doing web notarizations. The remaining traditional notaries might be those in offices where lots of notarizations were done, such as law offices, police stations*, and maybe motor vehicle offices (depending on the motor vehicle laws of a given state).

*Few if any notarizations are done in police stations for the general public, but the police officers are constantly swearing to affidavits to obtain various kinds of warrants. That's why all Vermont police officers are notaries.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 10/19/13 5:25pm
Msg #488777

Re: Let me rephrase the discussion . . .

I haven't yet researched or thought this issue through in detail, but off the top of my head, the thought of having my signature notarized by someone located who-knows-where in a sweatshop - or even a nicely appointed boiler room - via the internet, gives me zero level of confidence. Even worse is having to answer "personal security questions" to that unknown entity to prove my identity. Maybe it would be done electronically so that person never sees the responses, but still...

Even if we, as a society, get to routinely using biometrics for identity, how do you eliminate the risk of coercion from the transaction in the typical notarization, where the notary doesn't know the signer? It's my understanding that the Virginia webcam notarization program is intended primarily for government workers who deal with the same people over and over and over again, in similar type transactions. Whole different kettle of fish, IMO.

Reply by jba/fl on 10/19/13 1:09pm
Msg #488766

This has been discussed here the past couple of YEARS...

nothing new, except the players. Do a search with the orange search button. The follow-up state by state is extensive as well. Look for Brenda/TX comments as she researched this very well.

It is not legal in any state except as highly regulated concept in VA.

Search also: Notary Now


The first instruction before posting the message online is: Search to be sure this has not be asked/discussed before.

Reply by jba/fl on 10/19/13 1:11pm
Msg #488767

Re: This has been discussed here the past couple of YEARS...

In fact, here it is verbatim in case you don't read before you post, just skipping:

"Please consider consulting the Search feature before asking questions. Many questions have been answered repeatedly on this forum by expert notaries: Should I buy a laser printer? • What are e-docs? • What is a signing agent? • How much should I charge? • How do I get started? Answers to questions like these are just a few clicks away!"

Of course, other things have been discussed repeatedly as well. This is one of them for over a year of conversations.

Reply by Linda_in_IN on 10/19/13 5:15pm
Msg #488776

Re: This has been discussed here the past couple of YEARS...

I know about the orange button and the search feature. In fact use it extensively when updating my list of DO NOT USE companies. But thanks Julieanne for the reminder.

Besides trying to post on topics that could impact all our businesses, my intent was to take our minds off that "other" topic that shall remain nameless.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 10/19/13 5:32pm
Msg #488778

Suggestion for directing action against this

That article was dated last June, but if any of us again come across some news outlet that accepts their "news release" as real "news", instead of the PR propaganda piece it really is, we should bombard that news agency with corrections. I put the fault on Yahoo News, in that example, for apparently not having checked it out at all and just publishing it as it. Rather irresponsible, wouldn't you say?

That's a great example, though, of how careful we need to be about what purports to be news these days... Thank goodness for TruthorFiction.com and Snopes.com!

Reply by MW/VA on 10/19/13 6:53pm
Msg #488783

I know what your motives in posting this were, Linda, but

IMO it's another loaded topic. Again, IMO, this isn't going to affect us traditional notaries anytime in the near future. The law that was passed in VA is being misused. I don't know how long it will take for them to shut this kind of operation down.
I chose to stay far away from the VA Electronic Notary. IMO it's too much of a liability for me to take on.

Reply by Julianne Akyol on 10/20/13 8:56am
Msg #488804

Lynddaa in IN: You are so welcome for the reminder.

When talking to people, spelling of their names is important - don't you agree?

It is Julianne without an e in the middle.

The search feature, which you use so extensively, is also for articles and subjects discussed - not just companies.

Reply by LKT/CA on 10/19/13 2:19pm
Msg #488774

"please humor an old lady and play along"

You're too cute!!