Posted by Notarysigner on 9/21/13 3:19pm
Msg #485451

Providing a "hard copy" of loan Docs..

Does anyone know where I can find where it specifically states a borrower must be given a hard copy of the loan Docs??? Tnxs

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 9/21/13 3:45pm
Msg #485455

Look at all you confirmations from SS and/or TC's

Your instructions for borrowers copies are right there - that's all you need to know - that's what you're being paid for.

Reply by Darlin_AL on 9/21/13 3:46pm
Msg #485456

Uuuuh, vendor contracts & instructions w/the docs...... n/m

Reply by Art_PA on 9/21/13 3:48pm
Msg #485457

Incredible!!! You buy almost anything for a few cents & get a receipt. Don't you think that you should get a copy of what you sign when you put up your house and credit to borrow hundreds of thousands of dollars??? But since you ask, It was carved into the third table that Moses dropped coming down from Mt. Sinai.

Reply by Robert522TX on 9/21/13 4:02pm
Msg #485461

Haha n/m

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 9/21/13 4:05pm
Msg #485463

I think you meant "tablet", didn't you? LOL! n/m

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 9/21/13 4:03pm
Msg #485462

I think the borrower deserves a hard copy of the loan docs. Beyond that, it happened last year at the signing for our reverse mortgage. At the beginning of the signing, notary says, I brought the docs on a disc instead of a hard copy, is that OK? No, that is not ok. LO was pissed. I made her bring us a hard copy the next day. That and the fact that she never asked my husband to sign her journal caused her to lose her job. Title fired her. My LO was furious. AS she was packing up her stuff to leave, I asked if she was going to ID my husband? She said, well, I have a copy of his DL. Well, more specifically, aren't you going to ask him to sign your journal?

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 9/21/13 4:06pm
Msg #485464

Great question, JD!

I have searched endlessly and unsuccessfully to find where it is written in RESPA (or anywhere else)that anybody is to have a paper copy of anything. I would really like to read exactly what it says ... just like I have read exactly what has been written about Regulation Z, which in its completeness is verrrry interesting and has done much to contribute much to my understanding of real estate procedures. However, the must-have "copy" part does not exist in any form as far as I have been able to find. Through the years I have asked several times on NR if anybody knows where it can be found. All I get is the same responses you got ...

So good luck; let me know if you have any success!

Actually, I've been wondering if it's a requirement from the title industry as set forth by state departments of insurance and has nothing to do with HUD and/or RESPA. It also could be just a "service accommodation," since most borrowers would, of course, want a copy of their docs ... in one form or another .... and it has grown to be a part of the mobile signing process. Lenders don't seem to be concerned too much about providing copies - they expect escrow to provide them. And many TCs are moving more and more toward flash drives, CDs and e-mail for copies ... at least in my neck o' the woods.

Reply by Les_CO on 9/21/13 4:28pm
Msg #485470

Re: Great question, JD!

I would agree…I believe there may be many different laws rules and/or regulations, that apply…..Remember there really is no such thing as a “Notary Signing Agent”, and our jobs encompass a multitude of tasks governed by many different and separate rules/laws/regulations depending on many separate things…….basically the borrowers need a hard copy of everything….Why? One example….It’s hard to resend on a CD.

Reply by Christine/OK on 9/21/13 4:10pm
Msg #485465

Usually noted in confirmation. This year a new blurb states

absolutely no CDs of loan docs to BOx. Also states that if the BOs request docs on a CD, that the BOs are to call Title. Great question, James!

Reply by 101livescan on 9/21/13 4:15pm
Msg #485467

Personally, I won't sign anything that I'm not provided an exact copy of, especially loan documents on real property.

In my neck of the woods, a lot of borrowers ask for a copy of everything they signed so they have a copy of the signed original, especially the note.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 9/21/13 4:21pm
Msg #485469

Good point, Cheryl

I remember I was told once that way back in the "old days," it was SOP that the borrowers got a copy of the docs they signed after escrow closed. That was their copy.... not blank ones we provide.

I know of one lender I used to do a lot of work for last year that provided a bound copy of the signed loan docs along with other useful consumer info when it was all over. Their procedure was to provide only the RTCs up front .... sorta like Quicken, I think.

Reply by sueharke on 9/21/13 8:47pm
Msg #485521

If anyone here has watch the TV small claims court programs, the first question by the judge is "do you have a written copy of that agreement or contract" or "do you have anything in writing, email, or text, to show what you are saying is true? Many court cases have been lost due to no documentation!

Reply by Kat2857/CA on 9/21/13 4:33pm
Msg #485471

Nice to have a back-up

in case there is an error.

Reply by Notarysigner on 9/21/13 4:44pm
Msg #485473

some of you are sooooo bad....I asked here because if there

is an answer, I'm sure someone HERE will let me know. As far as telling me that's all I need to know is NOT very kind because I thought I was just as intelligent as everyone else here. I want the answer beyond blind faith.

I posted the question because someone on another forum said THEY told the TC to send an electronic copy of the Docs to the borrower because they weren't (they had already printed out tow revisitions. When I asked about it, they got smart so I posted this reply. BTW i know I'm being paid to print o u t the Docs.

" XXXXXXXX Yes I can relate. We are being paid to print out a copy for the borrower. IMO It would help to know if the TC did for future reference. One of the reasons we communicate on a forum (me anyway) is to share information. Luckily, I have more than one resource so hopefully someone will answer.

When I first started almost seven years ago, I thought it would be a good idea to give a CD of the Docs, environmentally sound, plus borrowers could make as many copies as they wanted. At that time I was told, "the law requires the borrower receive a hard (printed) copy". I have never been able to find that law and yet all hiring parties insist this be done.
It would have been helpful to know if the borrower received an electronic copy of the loan Docs from TC."

Reply by Robert522TX on 9/21/13 4:47pm
Msg #485474

Re: some of you are sooooo bad....I asked here because if there

Hope you don't think I was laughing at you. Someone else's answer about Moses dropping it on a table cracked me up.

Reply by Notarysigner on 9/21/13 4:49pm
Msg #485476

I did but belittling other notaries isn't in me....well

honestly I do say things out loud where nobody can hear me. LOL

Reply by 101livescan on 9/21/13 4:49pm
Msg #485475

Re: some of you are sooooo bad....I asked here because if there

I have often gone to a borrowers' home and they sat there with a printed out copy of what we were about to sign, and they flipped page by page with me to make sure it was all there.

Anal, yes, mistrusting, yes. This can occur with very savvy borrowers who've been put through the ringer for weeks on end, months on end or perhaps almost a year.

Reply by Notarysigner on 9/21/13 4:54pm
Msg #485477

Re: some of you are sooooo bad....I asked here because if there

The person in question NEVER answer whether the TC sent an electronic copy. Maybe new notaries think they can command a certain fee, then change the agreement "just 'cause". I'm really trying to understand the "new notary" out there. All you ol' notary's got your own ways of dealing with "stuff" and so what!

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 9/21/13 5:17pm
Msg #485481

Answer the question, Cheryl!

We don't care what your borrowers do/want/feel or how savvy they are or how uptight and untrusting they are to flip pages along with the signing! We want an answer to JD's question.... which is exactly the same question I've been asking for years, and he's getting the same lame responses I've been getting for years.

What's so hard about answering his question? If you don't know, then say so or don't respond at all. James is being very nice about these totally unhelpful responses he's been getting. So c'mon, 101, step up to the plate. You're our last hope, Cheryl!

P.S. See above post from Jana about nasty old veterans, very applicable here. (LOL)

Reply by 101livescan on 9/21/13 5:27pm
Msg #485483

Re: Answer the question, Cheryl!

okay, okay, okay...hold your horses, girlfriend.

As most of you know, I work primarily for the escrow officer, at the request of the specific Loan Officer. Hence, the request of providing a copy of the loan documents comes to me from escrow officer, or the settlement agent. Escrow prints a copy to be signed and an extra copy for the client.

As I'm sitting with the borrower, I'm usually asked, "will we be receiving a copy of our documents?" Yes, I way, I have a copy here for you today.

Does this help?

Now where does it say in b&w we must provide a copy of the documents to the borrower? It's generally in the specific instructions I may receive from a remote settlement agent, which was mentioned in an earlier post.

Some lenders provide a complete copy of the loan documents to the borrower electronically, especially before I arrive at the signing. Quicken will send an electronic and a hard copy to the client via UPS.

Am I getting warm?

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 9/21/13 5:38pm
Msg #485484

No, sweetie pie

Not even close. Still cold.

Please, cite chapter and verse wherein it sez something like:

"Regulation Q: Lenders and title companies will be required under penalty of (whatever) to provide a complete, printed on paper, one side only, black ink, blah blah blah exact duplicate of every single document included in above-mentioned loan and title documents to borrowers at the time of signing or within so many minutes of signing (or whatever.) Lenders also have the option of providing electronic copies under the E-Law of 20140, see section 13, paragraph 29."

Get it??

Reply by 101livescan on 9/21/13 5:46pm
Msg #485485

ooooohhhhhhhh! I see

like is it in PRINTED regulations somewhere...nope never scene it. Now, I'm not older than dirt yet.

But in my looooonnnnnggggg journey in the real estate lending world, never seen it. If I run across it, you'll all be the first to hear about it.

In fact, I'm going to ask a few of my very smart loan officers next week.

Reply by Notarysigner on 9/21/13 6:12pm
Msg #485491

Re: ooooohhhhhhhh! I see Hey, please do so

I honestly want to know?...what's wrong with that?

Reply by ananotary on 9/21/13 6:22pm
Msg #485494

Re: No, sweetie pie

This is reminding me of the same search for the "law" that says notaries in CA must use one line per document notarized and time stamped, etc.....

I recently had a closing where the TITLE company sent the docs over on a flash drive. NOTHING was printed for them.

85% of my closings are direct commercial closings. Of those, almost zero are provided copies at the closing when title prints the documents. They receive an email of the docs for review prior to my arrival.

Reply by Notarysigner on 9/21/13 6:24pm
Msg #485495

Now that's good to know, thanks! n/m

Reply by Notarysigner on 9/21/13 5:02pm
Msg #485480

When in doubt, always seek out PAW (RIP) my hero! n/m

Reply by Sha/CA on 9/21/13 6:25pm
Msg #485496

I bet Marian would know. Where art thou? n/m

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 9/21/13 6:31pm
Msg #485500



http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/12/618.8325

(b) Each qualified lender shall provide a copy of all loan documents to the borrower or the borrower's legal representative at the execution of the loan. Subsequently, upon written request of a borrower or a borrower's legal representative, a qualified lender shall provide, as soon as practicable, a copy of any loan documents signed by the borrower, a copy of other documents delivered by such borrower to that qualified lender, and a copy of each collateral evaluation of the borrower's assets made or used by the qualified lender. To the extent that a collateral evaluation may contain confidential third party information, the lender may protect such confidential third party information by withholding any information that would disclose identifying characteristics of the third party or his property. One copy shall be furnished free of charge. The lender may assess reasonable copying charges for any additional copies requested by the borrower.

Reply by Notarysigner on 9/21/13 6:34pm
Msg #485501

Oh my, Y O U A R E T H E B E S T! ! ! ! ! ! n/m

Reply by ananotary on 9/21/13 8:09pm
Msg #485517

Great info!! Question...How do they define "copy"?

In my recent experience "copy" appears to include "digital". Just wondering what you all think...

Reply by NVLSlady/VA on 9/21/13 8:28pm
Msg #485518

Re: Great info!! Question...How do they define "copy"?

ananotary: I asked that EXACT same question when I read the legal link. Depends on perception.

(there was the codex, then the book, . . . now kindle.)

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 9/22/13 12:37am
Msg #485531

Re: Great info!! Question...How do they define "copy"?

I would definitely provide paper copies of the RTC, at the very least, but I don't see any real issues with providing them a CD with the files on it if the BO's agree. jmo

I have had some people actually ask me for a CD copy when I tell them that I will have a copy for their files at the signing. It is easier to grab the CD when we have to evacuate as well as to make duplicate copies for them to keep in multiple locations (safety deposit box, home safe, etc.) in case of a home fire or for other needs.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 9/21/13 6:44pm
Msg #485504

Guess that settles that then - thank you so much

Sylvia - James is right - you ARE the best.

I could tell you it was standard procedure 30 years ago but couldn't cite chapter and verse. Good job!!

Reply by Darlin_AL on 9/21/13 7:25pm
Msg #485511

I apologize if this has already been mentioned

but one of the tenants of a legal binding contract is that both parties have a copy of the document. Buried or prominent, the loan pkg has several agreements, besides the note & mtg.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 9/21/13 7:59pm
Msg #485515

Nicely done, Sylvia!!! I was about to

post something very similar.


Right from the Feds...

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2011-title12-vol6/xml/CFR-2011-title12-vol6-sec618-8325.xml

Reply by Christine/OK on 9/22/13 8:28am
Msg #485538

Thank you for sharing, Marian! :D n/m

Reply by walthtz on 9/23/13 11:01pm
Msg #485679

So, why are we NOT allowed to provide that copy on a CD? That also would be a copy & I don't see anywhere where the copy cannot be electronic?

Reply by VT_Syrup on 9/24/13 8:15am
Msg #485692

Well, we still have not located the government requirement for the typical borrower to receive copies of the document, only the requirement for farm (and similar) loans.

If such a requirement exists, then the electronic copy would have to satisfy the applicable provisions of the federal E-Sign law and, in most states, the Uniform Electronic Transactions Act. How to interpret these laws is not obvious and is not included in notary training (in my state, NOTHING is included in notary training). So any prudent title company would want to be in control of providing a CD to the borrowers, if that is to be done. A prudent title company would not leave it to the discretion of the notary.

Reply by Bear900/CA on 9/22/13 3:02am
Msg #485534

EUTA and ESIGN make provision for electronic copies

I have to first admit I don’t know where we are in the stream of making the process doable for all parties, including the lender, borrower, and secondary market. Some lenders may have the process down where it works for all parties.

EUTA and ESIGN are definite legal ACTs designed to permit electronic delivery of borrower copies if the process is handled within guidelines and there is internal and external apparatus available.

There may be some hurdles from various agencies but the legal groundwork exists.

Good research on the two posted citations but they are in reference to FARM CREDIT ADMINISTRATION loans.

Please notice that they require a copy be given to the customer but I don’t believe it says specifically a hard copy. Curiously, they provide their code, electronically.

ELECTRONIC CODE OF FEDERAL REGULATIONS

“Each qualified lender shall provide a copy of all loan documents to the borrower or the borrower's legal representative at the execution of the loan. Subsequently, upon written request of a borrower or a borrower's legal representative, a qualified lender shall provide, as soon as practicable, a copy of any loan documents signed by the borrower, a copy of other documents delivered by such borrower to that qualified lender,”

Just an aside, farm loans are generally not RESPA loans, so RESPA is not a factor.

Also, electronic contracts are deemed legal.

HTTP://EURO.ECOM.CMU.EDU/PROGRAM/LAW/08-732/TRANSACTIONS/UETA.PDF

The basic rules are in Section 7 of UETA – Page 26

“Almost all of the other rules in UETA serve the fundamental principles set out in Section 7, and tend to answer basic legal questions about the use of electronic records and signatures. Thus, Section 15 determines when information is legally sent or delivered in electronic form. It establishes when electronic delivery occurs—when an electronic record capable of retention by the recipient is legally sent and received. The traditional and statutory rules that govern mail delivery of the paper memorializing a transaction can’t be applied to electronic transactions. Electronic rules have to be devised., and UETA provides the rule.”

“Section 8(a) the legal requirement addressed is the provision of information in writing. The section then sets forth the standards to be applied in determining whether the provision of information by an electronic record is the equivalent of the provision of information in writing.”

SECTION 8. PROVISION OF INFORMATION IN WRITING;
PRESENTATION OF RECORDS.

“However, in order to satisfy the legal requirement of other law to make information available, the sender must assure that the recipient receives and can retain the information.”

This particular provision of the ESIGN Act describes what is and is not allowable to demonstrate customer consent to their copy of edocs.

There are many parts of the esign act that require manageable and secure retention of the customers file for their viewing pleasure for set time frames, such as 7 years after paid off or after foreclosure.

Additional references:

https://www.fanniemae.com/content/technology_requirements/emortgage-delivery-guide.pdf

3.3.5. Electronic Disclosures and Consent; Additional Legal Requirements

http://www.ftc.gov/os/2001/06/esign7.htm#III

Curious letter from the FTC:

HTTP://WWW.FTC.GOV/BCP/WORKSHOPS/ESIGN/POSTCOMMENTS/CROCKER.PDF

Reply by Notarysigner on 9/22/13 3:03am
Msg #485535

Thanks to all who provided "hard" facts..appreciate it! n/m

Reply by Bear900/CA on 9/22/13 3:45pm
Msg #485556

Additional information on electronic docs to customers

Most loan originators are taught that if they email any docs to a customer they must:

1) Obtain the customer's permission and keep that as a record.

2) Email the customer asking for permission to send docs electronically specifally to get an email response back with their approval. That demonstrates their ability to receive docs. This is a hot topic for LOs or should be.

Electronic docs on media may have some lender guidelines and best to check. I wouldn't assume a "one fits all" scenario. More to look into.