Posted by SERVICIO on 9/20/13 8:11am
Msg #485265

standing up for the borrower?

I want to do a good job. I want to be helpful concise respectful honest and efficient. I not only work in this community but I live in the community. I have an office I have advertising. I am NOT just a notary. I run an insurance company.so it means a lot to make sure that my name is of the utmost good standing.
I sell that because I was at a signing last night that I don't feel comfortable how the loan officer's assistant handled the borrower.

The issue was that I arrived at the signing... my signing was with one individual when I arrived I met with his wife. So I proceeded to look for the documents for the wife as I could find her name on the thing. Come to find out she was not on title she was not home loan. So I advise the couple that she would not have to sign anything and that instewed to a bunch of questions. it was a Spanish only speaking family. So when I called the sign company to ask why there were not any documents for the wife because we are in the state of Tennessee. They advise me to call the loan officer's assistant. I asked her the same thing and she asked me if the borrower wife wanted to be on the title. So the couple said yes.but then the office assistant got on the phone with the borrower and tell them that it was not necessary right now and they could ask her later. But the borrowers were concerned that it would cost money to ask her later and did not understand why they could not ask her now. This is a refinance and they wanted her on the title from the beginning.
basically told them just go ahead and sign and you can deal with the rest later.then minutes after they hung up their daughter arrived at the home. She works at a bank and she said no her mother was supposed to be on the title.

My question is, if anybody knows, that why does the borrower have to pay extra to have the wife added to the title?

I would have been involved in other signings when there was this similar problem and the title company just redid the documents sent me back out again there was no additional charge to the borrower. But this person kept insisting that there would be an additional charge.

I didn't say anything but I didn't start the signing right away. I felt uncomfortable but I knew that the wife was upset but that the title company or the loan officer's assistant was insisting that they go ahead and sign and deal with the other issue later. the wife did not want to pay somebody to do that because she said she was supposed to always be on the title.

when the daughter came in she basically told the loan officer after waiting almost 35 minutes to get someone on the phone again, that they could either add her mother to the title or they would find another bank to do the refi.

Reply by Darlin_AL on 9/20/13 8:35am
Msg #485267

"added to the title"

OK, you may be really experienced in your other pursuits, but you had better get a good handle on what you're doing in this field of real estate law. There is no "added". Owners "on title" is the result of the name(s) on the deed when they came into ownership of the property. A new deed would be drawn up, signed, & recorded. The new deed would be from Mr. TO Mr. & Mrs. THAT is what an extra fee is for. Mr. would be the grantor and Mr & Mrs would be the grantees. This new deed can be done today, any time. Mr can make the deed to include the daughter, if they feel better about that. Servicio, if you have had training as a signing agent, you need more and to study hard to grasp the principals involved. Otherwise, all you've referenced that you value & have worked for can go down the drain when you are sued or involved in a lawsuit for a zillion reasons connected to being or not being "just a notary".

Reply by SERVICIO on 9/20/13 10:29am
Msg #485290

Re: "added to the title"

I said that because, I was at another signing a few months ago. Different bank, title, and signing company. Spanish only couple. the ex-girlfriend was on the title and his current wife was no where in the docs. Signing did not complete. but Title just redid the docs and sent me back with a new set of docs with the wife on the title. It was within about week when I was sent back. So I was asking why couldn't this company do the same?

Reply by SharonMN on 9/20/13 1:01pm
Msg #485335

Re: "added to the title"

Changing the owner of the home is a separate step not connected to the loan. (Even though sometimes lenders and title companies advise flipping people on and off title for various reasons, they really shouldn't.) The title company has every right to charge for this service although sometimes they do not.

People really should make sure that whenever they change their name, marital status, etc., they file an update to the title/deed while they still have ID in the former name, access to the ex-wife, etc.

Reply by Luckydog on 9/20/13 6:27pm
Msg #485398

Re: "added to the title"

Anytime the title is changed, it must be recorded, filed and they should be advised to get an new title policy because the old one will be voided because of title changes. All of this costs money. The title company does not just add people on title for free, and usually on a refi use what the old one states unless martial changes have occurred, and then they have to. It is easier for them to quit claim the person on the deed later and make it your issue, not theirs.

Reply by Linda Hubbell on 9/20/13 8:37am
Msg #485268

Some questions/comments come to mind

1. In TN, does the non-titled, non-borrowing spouse have to sign certain documents if it's their primary residence?

2. IMO yes, it could have been taken care of later via Quit Claim Deed (or whatever is used in TN) - the additional fees would probably be the recording fees and any fee incurred for a notary to take care of that deed. Title might also charge a fee for preparation of the QC Deed.

3. You said you called the signing company - when told to call the LO assistant, I would have requested permission to call title directly and ask them. We know LO's don't always know the answers, so odds are the assistant won't know much more -


Just some thoughts off the top of my head.

Reply by Les_CO on 9/20/13 9:52am
Msg #485283

Re: Some questions/comments come to mind

And I would ask could the signer that apparently “speaks only Spanish” read English? Were the docs in Spanish? I assume that you speak Spanish, did you read these documents to him and did he understand what he was signing? I know different States have different notary /real estate laws, I’m wondering what is/is not allowed in TN, and would such translation or explanation of the meaning of the wording in the docs, and their legal effect on the borrower be considered UPL in TN?

Reply by SERVICIO on 9/20/13 10:24am
Msg #485288

Re: Some questions/comments come to mind

The signing never took place. That is why a bilingual notary was requested to read the documents (which were in English) to the borrowers. I did not like the LO's asst., she spoke spanish and wanted to speak directly with the borrower (which that's not what I have a problem with) It was the fact that SHE wanted to charge them more money, not me. But trying to evade their question about if there was a cost later for this or not. She did not offer to do and get it right. She kept telling them they could just sign and deal with the other issue later. I did not feel good with that because, after reading the docs to the wife, she was not comfortable with that.

Reply by Les_CO on 9/20/13 12:13pm
Msg #485325

Re: Some questions/comments come to mind

Many LO's don’t care much about notarial laws, or that we as notaries could be breaking them, what they care about is their commissions. Will I go to jail or be fined to please a LO, or for $100? Not likely!

Reply by SERVICIO on 9/20/13 10:32am
Msg #485295

That is helpful, thank you. n/m

Reply by Lee/AR on 9/20/13 9:11am
Msg #485272

Additional charge for the drafting of the Deed (Quit Claim, most likely) and recording fees for same.

Reply by SERVICIO on 9/20/13 10:31am
Msg #485291

Yes, I understand that, but why be insistent on charging the borrower.

Reply by Lee/AR on 9/20/13 10:46am
Msg #485297

Because a lawyer has to draft the Deed and they charge for this and Recording offices also charge to record said Deed.

Reply by SERVICIO on 9/20/13 10:54am
Msg #485300

Yes, I knew that there was a charge, but wouldn't it just be in the best interest of getting the closing for them to just include it in the documents and move forward?

Reply by jba/fl on 9/20/13 11:18am
Msg #485308

Yes, it would. But - here's the caveat - this should have been determined before they were at the signing table. If so, the cost would have been rolled in somewhere and never really been noticed and/or objected to. By leaving it undone prior to the signing, it was the elephant in the room that 1/2 wanted to recognize and 1/2 wanted to leave until later.....the first 1/2 wanted it done but didn't want to pay and the second 1/2 didn't want to have the cost come out of their numbers.

To go ahead and sign everything and then go get the quit claim deed (if that is how it is conveyed in your state) would be a direct cost to the BO. To put it off, and sign later, the BO will pay a lot more, ie, attorney to draft, recording costs, notary to finalize, etc., plus a redraw fee on the docs. Weighing the costs of both actions, the sign now and take care of later would save the redraw fee and would be cheaper. If the daughter works at a bank, she could probably get the correct verbiage and form for the quit claim deed, thereby saving them the attorney fee.

Many things to consider, Servicio, and when you are not schooled in how things really work, you need to be quiet and interject nothing. As Sgt Schultz said: I know nothing.

Reply by DebraOro/CA on 9/20/13 11:21am
Msg #485309

Hi Servicio,
You pose a very good question, " why not just draft the quit claim deed in the first place and include it in the package?" It would certainly have saved everybody time, energy, confusion, and all that stuff.
I have run into the same problem, many times. It is very awkward for the notary as well, when the UN-named spouse is upset about it.
There are many reasons that this happens. When the loan process begins, the title to the property is automatically pulled, so as to get the Title correct on the docs. And also to see what loans are on the property. AT THAT TIME: LENDER SHOULD BE ASKING IF THE TITLE IS TO REMAIN UNCHANGED. More often than not, everybody thinks that somebody is going to ask, and then nobody ends up doing it.
Also; the Lender and the borrower need to determine if the other spouse should be on the loan, because in many cases one spouse may have better credit than the other, and having a spouse on the loan that has bad credit could make them not qualify for the lower interest rate.
In your situation yesterday; it could have been that there was never a clear understanding on the doc drawers end that there would be someone added. Or it could be that the Loans Rate Lock Expiration would not allow time to redraw the docs.
It's one of those on going frustrations in this business.
I hope this helps.

Reply by Darlin_AL on 9/20/13 10:55am
Msg #485301

This is a borrower's cost, new deed at their request n/m

Reply by John/KY on 9/20/13 2:53pm
Msg #485357

Re: This is a borrower's cost, new deed at their request

A point that has not been brought up yet are the possibility of personal liens or bankruptcy against the wife (and patriot act search) that would not have come up in the original title search if her name was not on the deed or not provided to the title co. This would require another abstractor to run the name at the courthouse, incurring yet additional fees in addition to the attorney drafting the deed, taxes, and recording etc. Any lien against the wife (child support, judgment, etc) would immediately encumber the subject property upon the recording of the new Deed, and any such lien would then be superior to the Mortgage. This all can certainly be done during rescission (with a savvy title co and underwriter at the lender) with funding contingent on a clean updated title search, but yet another reason it could not be done right then and there.

The others are right that the LO or his assistant are the last people that would know best about adding a party to the vesting of the real property. The title company should be the contact as they are providing the insurance that the loan fully encumbers the property and is a first lien. I would say that if title was never informed of the wish to have the spouse added then they are certainly going to charge their usual fees. A LO who missed such a thing should eat the cost. Just my opinion!

Reply by Darlin_AL on 9/20/13 3:05pm
Msg #485359

John, didn't want to build the watch, as they say... n/m

Reply by JanetK_CA on 9/20/13 4:34pm
Msg #485373

You got some good comments here, but there are a few issues that I haven't seen addressed directly. Here are some questions that come to mind:

1. Is Tennessee a marital or community property state (or other term that means a spouse automatically has some kind of ownership rights)?

2. How was title last recorded? In other words, was the title only in the husband's name before? If so, was that since or before they were married? (That makes a big difference here; don't know about elsewhere.)

Lots of people referred to this, but to be clear, it's important to understand that title to a property cannot be amended just by changing something on the loan docs. Changing even one letter of someone's name requires the recording of another Deed of some sort (this will vary by state). And the vesting on a set of loan docs must exactly match the vesting on the last recorded Deed.

So it seems to me that the first thing they need to figure out is if their request is due to an error on the existing docs or if they want to change something from how title was previously recorded. This wasn't clear to me in your post. If the vesting is different from last recorded deed, it needs a redraw and they should fix it. If they want a change (which it sounds like the likely case), they could, in theory, do that before the new Deed of Trust is signed and recorded, but that would likely also require a redraw.

So, again assuming there was no error, the easiest thing for the lender and title is to get the docs signed as is, then take care of the vesting change afterwards. To do that, of course, requires someone to prepare a new Deed, get it notarized and recorded (and fees paid). Some title/escrow companies will do that for free, depending on the client (i.e. lender - and how much they make from them) and the size of this transaction. Some of the bigger title companies don't do those at all for liability reasons. (Getting the wife on the loan itself is a whole other issue which I believe was addressed pretty well elsewhere in this thread.)

Bottom line, unless this issue came about as a result of an error by the lender - or if the borrower had been requesting from the very beginning that they wanted to make that change and were told it would be done - there's no reason for the BOs to expect this to be done for free, imo.

I agree that I would have been talking with title about this, certainly not to a LO Assistant, unless I couldn't reach anyone else. And even if that were the case, I'd probably be asking that person how to reach someone at title.