Posted by JustANotary on 6/30/11 11:15am
Msg #388204

National Notary Assn & Abortion....

I just received an email from the NNA. This is the 2nd time I have seen them remind notaries that if we are asked to notarize a document approving an abortion, that we are to remain unbiased. If you believe that abortion is murder, your commitment before your God would be more important than the oath you took to your State & Country to do your duty as a public servant.

Reply by laurel/nc on 6/30/11 11:19am
Msg #388206

Total Complete Agreement. Thank you for posting!!!

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 6/30/11 11:22am
Msg #388207

Just because you may not agree with a particular document

doesn't mean you can't notarize it.

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 6/30/11 11:22am
Msg #388208

In addition, while I may not necessarily support the

idea of gay marriage - if it were legalized in Florida I feel I would be obligated to perform their "civil ceremony", even though I may disagree with the practice.

Reply by JustANotary on 6/30/11 11:39am
Msg #388211

Re: Just because you may not agree with a particular document

I have wondered if there were notaries (or the equivalent) in Germany during the war that took an unbiased approach & signed papers sending innocent people to their death. If before God you think something is wrong, you can't do it.

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 6/30/11 11:29am
Msg #388210

I would agree with Robert.

You are an impartial public official.

Reply by laurel/nc on 6/30/11 11:40am
Msg #388212

Re: I would agree with Robert.

We are supposed to be impartial but there are issues that I would have trouble being impartial to and would have to decline. So much is out of our hands but we still have the right to say no.

Reply by SouthernOK on 6/30/11 11:47am
Msg #388213

Honestly this would be handled in the Dr office

Most physicians have a notary in house. This would be taken care of inside the physicians office, not by a UPS/bank/etc notary.

Ther are healthcare privacy laws that pertain to these documents.

Reply by JustANotary on 6/30/11 11:58am
Msg #388216

Would you notarize a doc if you thought there was fraud?

If you would NOT notarize a document if you tought it would allow fraud, why would you notarize a document if you thought it would allow murder?

Reply by HARRY_PA on 6/30/11 12:02pm
Msg #388220

Time to switch to just politics n/m

Reply by SouthernOK on 6/30/11 12:14pm
Msg #388229

agreed this has crossed from work to politics/religion n/m

Reply by Calnotary on 6/30/11 12:03pm
Msg #388221

Re: Would you notarize a doc if you thought there was fraud?

I think you can not refuse to notarize in CA just because it goes against your beliefs.

Reply by JustANotary on 6/30/11 12:16pm
Msg #388230

Re: Would you notarize a doc if you thought there was fraud?

If State law says one thing, but you believe your God says otherwise what would you do? Maybe abortion is not an issue in your mind, but still I ask everyone, can you never imagine that you would refuse to notarize a document because of your beliefs? You would not notarize is you suspected fraud, so why would you notarize is you thought you were doing wrong before God?

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 6/30/11 12:37pm
Msg #388241

IMO, fraud involves knowledge of a false statement

or illegal act - that has nothing to do with personal beliefs. If you know the statement is not true or involves something illegal or is being signed to further something illegal, then that would go more to fraud.

I believe we need to remain impartial and keep our personal beliefs out of the business transaction.

Thankfully FL allows us to refuse to notarize under various circumstances, one of which is "the notary is not comfortable with the request;"

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 6/30/11 12:51pm
Msg #388247

Re: Would you notarize a doc if you thought there was fraud?

Actually... you can't refuse to notarize if you SUSPECT fraud... you can only notarize if you have absolute knowledge of fraud or some illegal act. And, you have to be VERY careful, because if you venture in to making a legal determination, you could get in trouble for UPL...

Abortion is not illegal. I'm keeping my personal opinion out of it, as much as I hate to do so... but the fact is that is *is* legal... and you cannot refuse a legal request for notarization, no matter what.

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 6/30/11 12:53pm
Msg #388248

Thank God we don't have such restrictions in Florida

Our handbook states that we CAN refuse to notarize if "the notary knows or suspects that the transaction is illegal, false, or deceptive." (p. 55, Governor's Ref Manual for Notaries)

Reply by BobbiCT on 6/30/11 12:06pm
Msg #388222

Well put JustANotary ...

Once the notary's personal objection to the document is known, the signer may not want to use that particular public officer. There are an awful lot of notaries, attorneys, etc. who can perform notarizations throughout the U.S. Also, doctor's offices, clinics, and hospitals have in-house, staff notaries.

Not quite the same, but like the Government telling Catholic hospital doctors and nurses they must perform abortions. Would you really feel comfortable going "under the knife" of a doctor/nurse team who are adamantly, morally against your choice of an abortion just because the government told them they had to do it?

Reply by Julie/MI on 6/30/11 12:23pm
Msg #388234

Re: Well put JustANotary ...

In the end I seek His approval, not society's. Nice to see the Evil One's presence at the NNA

Thankfully my state says I can refuse a notarization.

Reply by NJDiva on 6/30/11 12:45pm
Msg #388244

"Nice to see the Evil One's presence...

at the NNA "

Wait, are you just talking about THIS situation? lol

The truth of the matter is that we ALL commit evil at SOME point in our lives...lol Unless, um, er, hmmmmm, echem, am I the only one with skeletons in my closet???...lmao

Thank G*** I won't go to hell for being HUMAN!!

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 6/30/11 12:02pm
Msg #388219

I heard on radio yesterday, that a County Clerk in NY has

announced that she will refulse to sign marriage licenses for same sex marriages in her county.
I believe that this is also wrong.
If the duties of your office conflict with your bellefs, then you may either follow the law or resign your position.

Reply by Notarysigner on 6/30/11 12:08pm
Msg #388223

Just incase...

If your belief interferes with your duties resign your post........I'm repeating this JUST IN CASE you may have missed Bob's post.

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 6/30/11 12:41pm
Msg #388243

I agree w/ Bob. Follow the law or resign your postion. n/m

Reply by MikeC/NY on 6/30/11 3:52pm
Msg #388289

Re: I heard on radio yesterday, that a County Clerk in NY has

I haven't seen that yet, Bob, but it IS the law now here in NY, so she cannot legally refuse. If she feels that strongly about it, she will have to step down because otherwise she will be violating the law.

The new law does make exemptions to protect religious organizations from litigation, but that only refers to the actual performance of the ceremony or use of their property to perform/celebrate the marriage (e.g., the Knights of Columbus cannot be sued for refusing to allow a gay couple to rent the K of C hall for their wedding reception).

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 6/30/11 4:18pm
Msg #388292

Here is a link that I found on Google. Posted w/o comment

http://www.lefthudson.com/2011/06/ny-town-clerk-refuses-to-issue-same-sex.html

Reply by MikeC/NY on 6/30/11 8:31pm
Msg #388323

Re: Here is a link that I found on Google. Posted w/o comment

Thanks, Bob.

Oswego County is in the boondocks, so we don't hear a lot about it here in the NYC area.. (that was a joke, folks....)

I thought the reference to Romans 13 was really interesting, because it basically blows away any argument against following laws you don't agree with. Not that it will stop anyone from thinking otherwise...

There's also that reference to the Nazis, which has unfortunately found its way into this thread, leading me to wonder - is there a book or a study guide these folks use that teaches them what to say?

Reply by SouthernOK on 6/30/11 12:08pm
Msg #388224

This is not a one size fits all situation IMHO

To say that you won't notarize any of this type of document is a personal choice.

Under what circumstances would you even need a notarization? What form?
What state?

Reply by JustANotary on 6/30/11 12:11pm
Msg #388226

Re: This is not a one size fits all situation IMHO

Nebraska is joining some other states that require notarized OK from parents for minors to have abortion. This according to email I just received from NNA.

Reply by SouthernOK on 6/30/11 12:13pm
Msg #388228

If baby dies in utero? n/m

Reply by JanetK_CA on 6/30/11 6:21pm
Msg #388310

Re: If baby dies in utero?

Or if the mother's life is in danger from the pregnancy and she has other children who depend on her?? Just like with a loan doc situation, we won't have all the facts and it's impossible to make an informed judgement about something just based on the presentation of a document. Besides, we're not supposed to be making judgments about the content of documents anyway. We notarize a signature. Period. End of sentence. I agree with Marian that we should remain neutral.

Reply by Notarysigner on 6/30/11 12:12pm
Msg #388227

Not picking on you but if you're in Ca maybe you should

go over the Oath you took at the County Clerk's office.

Reply by NJDiva on 6/30/11 12:17pm
Msg #388231

Why is it anyone's business WHAT is in the doc???

Aren't we just attesting to their identity after all?

Mind your own business and it won't be a moral JUDGMENT call. Period end.

Reply by NJDiva on 6/30/11 12:18pm
Msg #388232

oops, IN MY HUMBLE OPINION n/m

Reply by JustANotary on 6/30/11 12:18pm
Msg #388233

Re: Why is it anyone's business WHAT is in the doc???

Again I ask, if you thought there was fraud would you refuse, or "mind your own business" and just make sure the ID was correct etc?

Reply by NJDiva on 6/30/11 12:29pm
Msg #388237

Seen it here many times, how do I determine that?

If their ID is shady, THEN it's my choice to make a judgment as to whether or not it's potentially "fraud" and whether or not I feel comfortable signing.

It's none of our business what is in the document. I really don't care what is in it. I ask them if they know and understand. I inspect their identity and document it.

Do you really sit and read peoples documents? Honestly, I think it's an invasion since our purpose is to swear to identity and whether the reasons for signing are genuine. We're not swearing to the contents, right?

I'm not a cop, a detective, the FBI or the CIA. However, if I am presenting doc's (signings) to a person, THAT'S a different story. I DO feel a certain responsibility, for sure.

Everything I say is of my OWN opinion. I really don't care what anyone else does as long as it doesn't affect me professionally or personally.

Reply by SharonMN on 7/1/11 3:49pm
Msg #388385

Re: Why is it anyone's business WHAT is in the doc???

I more or less agree. Should the postman be allowed to refuse to accept a letter containing payment of a bill from the abortion clinic? If they show up with proper ID and swear that their favorite ice cream is chocolate, it doesn't really matter whether I agree with that statement or not. I'm just saying they showed up and took the oath. I think there's a difference between being uncomfortable with what you're being asked to do (notarize the doc) vs. being uncomfortable with the end result the document is trying to accomplish. If you analyzed every doc you notarized, you probably wouldn't agree with half of them.

Reply by HisHughness on 6/30/11 12:24pm
Msg #388235

It is time for you to resign your commission

If you are not capable of executing your duties as an officer of the state without regard to your political or religious convictions, you do not deserve to be an officer of the state. There are legitimate reasons for refusing a notarization; suspicion of fraud, conflict of interest, for example. Your personal convictions are not among them.

Regardless of my beliefs or regardless of your beliefs, the Supreme Court of the United States has held abortion lawful. You are bound by that finding in carrying out your duties.

You should turn in your commission before you are confronted with the problem.

Reply by JustANotary on 6/30/11 12:28pm
Msg #388236

Re: It is time for you to resign your commission

People with spiritual beliefs should volunteer to give up their businesses?

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 6/30/11 12:39pm
Msg #388242

If they feel they are incapable of doing the job ... Yes. n/m

Reply by JanetK_CA on 6/30/11 6:24pm
Msg #388312

Re: It is time for you to resign your commission

Your statement implies that anyone with any spiritual beliefs would be in agreement with you. Seems to be a pretty bold assumption, imho - speaking in general terms...

Reply by SouthernOK on 6/30/11 12:30pm
Msg #388238

I (heart) Hugh n/m

Reply by NJDiva on 6/30/11 12:34pm
Msg #388239

I (heart) Hugh

Me too, me too, me too!!! p)

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 6/30/11 12:47pm
Msg #388246

I hate to tell you this, but California law states that you cannot refuse a legal request for notarizations. The contents of the document are none of your concern. As a public official, you cannot refuse a legal request based on your morals.

I understand the moral dilemma... and believe me, I've notarized plenty of signatures on documents for which I had moral issues with, and I was not comfortable having my name on it. The thing is... it's really not my job.

If you refuse a legal request... that's grounds for losing your commission.

I'm a religious person myself, and I don't know about many other faiths, but mine specifically states that we believe in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law of the land we live in. If we do so, even if it may conflict with our moral and religious beliefs, than it's not something we will be held accountable for. If we don't like the law, we're encouraged to get involved and change it -- not break it.

Since I took an oath to uphold the law as a public official...that's what I do, no matter what I'm presented with.

Reply by JustANotary on 6/30/11 12:59pm
Msg #388249

I would rather lose my commission than go against my morals. I would fight to support anyone who lost their commission or there job because of their spiritual beliefs, even if I did not agree to their beliefs.

I ask the question again, don't you think there were people in Germany who obeyed the law to help with paper work that sent innocent people to their deaths? IF you believe abortion is murder, how can you be any part of the process, even if the laws of your state say that you can not refuse?

Reply by NJDiva on 6/30/11 1:10pm
Msg #388251

lol...but the point is....

how do you KNOW that is what you are notarizing? Do you read the documents being presented to you?

Reply by Notarysigner on 6/30/11 1:15pm
Msg #388254

Re: lol...but the point is....

It appears "JustaNotary" ....isn't!

Reply by JustANotary on 6/30/11 1:30pm
Msg #388256

Re: lol...but the point is....

I write the title of the document in my journal. If the title was "permission to perform abortion" & I believed abortion to be murder...

No one wants to answer the question about "notaries" in Germany during the war.

As an American I will fight to defend your right to your spiritual beliefs, even if I do not agree with them. If I do not fight for your freedoms I will lose my own also!

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 6/30/11 1:35pm
Msg #388257

OH, boy....

Your write the "nature" of the document in your journal... not necessarily the "title" --- remember that your journal is a public record, and if you're dealing with personal health information, you should be careful about writing down the exact name of a procedure. Eeegads!

Again, as a notary you aren't authorizing or approving anything... you're "justanotary" --- which means you're verifying the identity of the person signing a document. The contents of which are none of your concern. It says so right in the handbook!

Reply by NJDiva on 6/30/11 2:23pm
Msg #388264

Is that the title of the affidavit????

"permission to perform abortion?"

Just so you know, a number of years ago, I had a miscarriage. Do you know the medical term for that?????

Spontaneous ABORTION!!!

I did not have an ABORTION, but it sounds to me like you would probably assume I did just because you see that word.

Reply by Susan Fischer on 6/30/11 3:07pm
Msg #388280

Yes, Hugh addressed the absurd reference to Nazi Germany,

and very well too.

It's difficult to understand why you think your personal beliefs have anything to do with someone else's personal and legal medical decisions.

This line in the sand is not about freedom - if it were, you would support everyone's rights, including someone making a legal decision with which you disagree.

Law are laws, and you cannot pick and choose which ones you will uphold.

If you refused my request to Notarize a document based on your argument, I would report you.

Reply by jba/fl on 6/30/11 8:01pm
Msg #388321

We cannot answer your question about notaries in

World War II - most of us were babies or yet to be born then. It is also comparing apples to oranges - not the same thing. Since you persist in this question, please think of the consequences for that notary in Nazi Germany......can you think what the consequence would be if that notary said no? Can you think of what the consequences would be for any person who stood in the way of the Nazi machine?

Now, let's just progress to modern day American notaries - those of us in the United States of America. Can we agree to focus on just them? In fact, let us just focus on you and I - and forget about the rest of them for just right now and see if we can find some perspective. Can we do that?......

OK - Let's, for the sake of argument, say that both of us have the same beliefs (which, coincidently, I think we do.) If someone comes to me for notization of a document, they usually ask if I can do this for them. I reply that they must show me valid ID, unexpired, that I must be convinced that they are who they say they are and then that they are signing of their own free will, and must be over age 18. I assume you do the same? Ok, we agree and are together on this.

The document is then signed and I notarize after witnessing them signing. As I enter the title of the document into my journal, I notice it is something I personally don't agree with, so I remind myself that the law says this is ok and that God is ok with me doing my job. All laws of the land are to be complied with, until they are changed. This is written in the Bible:
"King James Bible, Mark 12:17
And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him."

This was a trap for Jesus, but his answer showed how to conduct your life in a secular world; how to separate church and state. Just His verse alone is out of context of the entire story - so reading the entire story, putting this in context, may assist you in conducting your notarial role. Please read to see if you cannot reconcile your belief to your job.
http://www.christianvoice.org.uk/Articles/Render_unto_Caesar.html

Reply by Notarysigner on 6/30/11 1:14pm
Msg #388252

JustANotary you should take this to politics IMO n/m

Reply by HisHughness on 6/30/11 1:15pm
Msg #388253

JustANotary, you should get off your righteous high horse

No one has told you that you cannot practice your beliefs.

But there is a great difference between practicing your beliefs and letting your individual beliefs interfere with your duties as an officer of the state. You feel you cannot do something that your commission requires you to do. That's fine. The answer is not to slight your official duties; the answer is to remove the necessity for you to carry out those duties.

Resign your commission.

Citing Nazi Germany to support your untenable position is really disingenuous, in addition to the fact that you are drawing the wrong analogy. The correct analogy is that there were Germans who used the power of the state to further their personal belief that Jews were subhuman. You wish to use the power that the state has given you to formalize documents to advance your personal belief system -- just as the German anti-Semites did. There were people in Germany who objected to the actions of the state. If they objected, they declined to participate in those actions, just as I -- and others on this forum -- have told you that you should do.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 6/30/11 6:29pm
Msg #388316

Bravo, Hugh!!!! n/m

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 6/30/11 1:15pm
Msg #388255

I would make the effort to change a law that I felt were immoral, or I would vote for representatives who felt that same way I did.

The fact is, abortion is legal. The fact is, that as a notary the contents of a document are NONE of my business. Notarizaing a signature on a document is NOT a stamp of approval to the contents, only the identity of the signer.

I think you should be careful about publicly pronouncing that you would violate CA law in this regard... that alone might get your commission suspended or revoked. I agree with James... if you are prepared to fully act in your office, you need to resign your commission.

Reply by JustANotary on 6/30/11 1:40pm
Msg #388258

If I had a conflict with ANY law & what I thought God said to do, I would break the law. I will publically state that. I also state that I will defend your right to do the same.

Reply by HisHughness on 6/30/11 1:59pm
Msg #388259

***If I had a conflict with ANY law & what I thought God said to do, I would break the law.***

The more you post, the further you shove your head up your nether orifice, JustANotary.

You are not talking about a law that everyone is expected to obey, and that would require you to either diavow your beliefs or to exercise civil obedience to follow them. You are not confronted with that dilemma. All you have to do to support your beliefs <and> abide by the law is to resign your commission.

As strongly as you feel, you should do that posthaste. Otherwise, you are simply blowing hot air.

Reply by JustANotary on 6/30/11 2:13pm
Msg #388262

Well, I have never formed an opinion on abortion (I will not go into why as that is not the purpose of this BB), but I still defend anyone's right to not go along with any law that makes them be a part of a process that THEY believe violates their spiritual beliefs. If you do not have spiritual beliefs, I defend your right to not have any. I do not think you should have to give up your business if you do not believe in God. I will not volunteer to give up my business because of any conflicts between my spiritual beliefs & State laws.

Reply by Notarysigner on 6/30/11 2:22pm
Msg #388263

If that's the case, tell us how your IRS audit turned out

since that was another obvious "law" you didn't follower. BTW you posted about it but didn't follow thru with the answer.

Reply by JustANotary on 6/30/11 2:27pm
Msg #388265

Re: If that's the case, tell us how your IRS audit turned out

Actually they did approve my milage log. Is that what you were refering to?

Reply by Notarysigner on 6/30/11 2:30pm
Msg #388267

deducting for meals! n/m

Reply by JustANotary on 6/30/11 2:34pm
Msg #388269

Re: deducting for meals!

Ouch, no you can not deduct food unless you are overnight. I have had 3 CPA's is 20 years of deducting meals & not one of them told me that. I honestly did not know that. I should have known, but did not.

Reply by Notarysigner on 6/30/11 2:38pm
Msg #388272

Re: deducting for meals!

I thank you for your honest answer.

Reply by NJDiva on 6/30/11 2:34pm
Msg #388268

JUSTANOTARY...TAKE THIS TO POLITICS...I DON'T CARE!!!

I don't care that your choosing to be your own state and not follow the laws of your state. Be quiet about it already PLEASE!!!!

Take it out of the "Discuss Work" forum!!!

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 6/30/11 2:42pm
Msg #388273

Actually, this started out as being published in the

NNA newsletter - and it's about separating your public duties from your personal beliefs...I think it's very notary relavent.

JMO

Reply by NJDiva on 6/30/11 2:52pm
Msg #388277

Not the Germany stuff and the person's moral beliefs...

that was not regarding work...sorry Linda, I disagree...

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 6/30/11 3:11pm
Msg #388283

That was the whole point of the article

can a notary perform their notary duties despite their own personal moral beliefs...it most certainly IS notary-related...

The Germany stuff, no - but I think the OP was just trying to make a comparative point.

Reply by NJDiva on 6/30/11 3:30pm
Msg #388287

And I was referring to the Germany, morals, blah, blah, blah

NONSENSE (a MUCH nicer word than I am REALLY thinking), Linda!

Let's talk about business all day long. Please don't contradict me, Linda! I appreciate what you have to say, but parts of this post, as you agreed, was not appropriate in this forum.

Unfortunately, by the time my post hit, it looked like it was referring to other people's post. It actually should have been up three or so posts. It posted right after we actually got back on the subject of "WORK".

Geesh. Grrrrrrrr

Reply by JanetK_CA on 6/30/11 6:35pm
Msg #388318

Re: And I was referring to the Germany, morals, blah, blah, blah

My first instinct was to agree with you - but on further consideration, I think Linda is right. If this discussion had evolved into the pros and cons of the actual issue of abortion, that would be a different story, but for the most part, I think this thread has done a pretty good job of sticking with how if affects our roles as NPs.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 6/30/11 3:08pm
Msg #388281

Re: Actually, this started out as being published in the

I agree with Linda... the topic isn't really about any particular issue. As Linda said, it's about personal morals and beliefs vs. legal duties in a role that we volunteered to do. It can be applied to any type of thing...

For example, here in CA some notaries, if authorized by their county clerk, can issue confidential marriage licenses. Now, part of being able to obtain one of those means that the couple is already living together as if they were married. They have to swear to that under oath.

If a same-sex couple, or couple over the age of 62 want, they can register as a domestic partnership in the state. This form needs to be notarized.

What about declarations of paternity, too? I've notarization quite a few of those.

And... what about prisoners in jail? Have any of you been called in to notarize documents for the courts? What if the inmate is signing off on an agreement of some kind, but you think it's wrong and he needs to "rot in prison"?

And what of a couple signing a loan documents package for a home they clearly won't be able to afford? Many faiths out there, mine included, view debt as a bad thing and encourage us to avoid it at all costs. For many, it's a moral issue.... even a Biblical mandates regarding it can be found.

So by the OP's argument... a case could easily be made that if you are morally opposed to taking on debt, you should therefore have the right to refuse to notarize documents that involve leading or borrowing money.

Where do you draw the line?

The fact is that our personal opinions and beliefs, no matter how strong, really have no place in our role as a notary. I know I've notarized PLENTY of documents for situations where I would never want to be involved. It doesn't mean that I "approve" or "condone" what the person is doing. It just means I'm verifying their identity and signature.

THing is... I'm NOT involved! I'm just there as a witness to a signature. I'm not a party to whatever it is taking place and my seal is not a stamp of approval on what ever it is their doing.

Reply by HisHughness on 6/30/11 3:14pm
Msg #388284

Re: Actually, this started out as being published in the

Well-reasoned and well-stated, Marian -- stated far less confrontationally than I ever would, in fact.

Hugh

Reply by HisHughness on 6/30/11 3:09pm
Msg #388282

You are a piece of work, JustANotary

***I will not volunteer to give up my business because of any conflicts between my spiritual beliefs & State laws.***

The Constitution guarantees you freedom of belief, JustANotary. <It does not guarantee you a position as an officer of the state>.

You are essentially demanding that the state forego requirements for its officers to conform to your beliefs, when the obvious answer is simply to remove yourself from the position that causes the conflict. I can only judge that you are either incurably narcissistic, and place your desires before everything else; or you don't really care all that much about the beliefs you are asserting with such righteousness. From all indications, you are prepared to take the bucks from your profession over the beliefs.

I'm done with this thread.

Reply by KSMONotary on 6/30/11 1:59pm
Msg #388260

You must lead an extremely pure existence. Thank you for your interpretation of not only our country’s laws, but Gods laws as well. It sounds like your personal beliefs are now impeding upon your ability to BE A PROFESSIONAL, taking the moral high ground we can only assume someone like you will take, we should certainly be hearing of your resignation in the very near future.

If you find yourself looking for employment, I am sure Fred Phelps needs another idiot to hold up a sign.

We are not worthy...

Reply by Buddy Young on 6/30/11 6:19pm
Msg #388309

We are not Judges, folks

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 6/30/11 2:12pm
Msg #388261

I think it's a good thing you're posting anonymously, then... because there are several of us here who would not hesitate to report you to the CA SoS for openly admitting you'd break the law that you swore, under oath, to obey, when you obtained your commission.

If you can't follow the laws of the land... why are you in an office sworn to uphold them?


Again, this has nothing to do with religious or moral beliefs. Trust me, I'm probably one of the most religious people you would ever meet...and I have very strong opinions on certain laws. I just don't how it impacts our duty as a public official that we WILLINGLY took upon ourselves.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 6/30/11 2:47pm
Msg #388274

This should be in politics, but here goes....

"If I had a conflict with ANY law & what I thought God said to do, I would break the law. I will publically state that. I also state that I will defend your right to do the same. "

Please don't, especially on my account. I can handle this on my own, preferably the legal way. I don't need or want you to break any laws for me.

And in case you haven't got the message yet, the contents of docs are not your business nor your concern. If you insist on making it so, you should hang up your commission. The state of CA is not interfering with your right to hold whatever views on whatever issue is at hand, and as a representative of the state, you have no right to interfere with others'. Holding a CA notary public commission DOES NOT give you power to refuse to notarize a signature because you disagree with a signer's beliefs.

It's highly unlikely that CA will ever have such a law as Nebraska's, but if it ever does, and you refused to notarize a signature on such a document, citing your personal beliefs, you better have plenty of E&O.

And by the way it's "publicly."

Reply by Buddy Young on 6/30/11 6:27pm
Msg #388314

Re: This should be in politics, but here goes....

you would have to be pretty stupid to cite your personal beliefs as the reason for not signing.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 6/30/11 8:14pm
Msg #388322

Public statement

"If I had a conflict with ANY law & what I thought God said to do, I would break the law. I will publically state that. "

A "public statement" means you will stand up and identify yourself, yet you've chosen to hide behind an anonymous name.

If you feel so strongly about breaking the law when it doesn't agree with your religious views - if you REALLY have the courage of your convictions - you would grow a spine and link your identity to the posts you make so that everyone will know who you are.

Otherwise, it's just ego-stroking on your part, and a total waste of bandwidth...

Reply by MikeC/NY on 6/30/11 4:54pm
Msg #388299

I'll just add my 2 cents...

I can't believe I'm about to actually put this in print, but the NNA is absolutely right on this one - a notary must always be unbiased. When we are acting in that capacity, our personal beliefs and opinions have no place at the table.

NY law does not allow me to pick and choose which documents to notarize - I cannot refuse to perform a legal notarization. The contents of the document are not my concern, as long as they are legal. What you're proposing is not even an option for me, regardless of my beliefs.

I appreciate the fact that you have strongly held views on the subject, but you have also taken an oath - before that same God, by the way - that you will uphold the laws of the state in which you are commissioned. God's got a lot of things to do, and I'm pretty sure He's not up there trying to figure out which oaths count, which ones don't, and who gets a mulligan when there's a conflict of interest...

There is absolutely nothing wrong with having strong religious beliefs, but the point at which they conflict with your responsibilities as a public official is the point at which you have to make a choice between the two.

You do not have the right (God-given or otherwise) to unilaterally redefine your role as a public official. If your "commitment to God" is truly more important than the oath you took, your choice is an easy one to make. If you feel that you cannot perform as a notary in certain types of LEGAL situations, you should resign your commission NOW - before you have the opportunity to start illegally interfering in the lives of other people (and before the state starts getting complaints about you and just takes it away from you).

Reply by JustANotary on 6/30/11 9:18pm
Msg #388325

Re: I'll just add my 2 cents...

I think that someone in this discussion said that in Florida you are allowed to opt out if you have an moral objection to what is being notarized. As I said, I do not hold a strong opinion on abortion, I am undecided. But if I did have a strong moral or religious objection, I think I should not have to compromise. If we do not fight for each others freedoms it's just a matter of time until you lose freedoms. I would not compromise my convictions, & if they took away my commission I would go to court & argue that I should have the right not to participate if I thought something was violating my religious freedom. Or maybe I would move to Florida?

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 6/30/11 9:22pm
Msg #388326

Re: I'll just add my 2 cents...

How is verifying the identity of a person and their signature a violation of your religious freedom?

Reply by jba/fl on 6/30/11 9:33pm
Msg #388328

Re: I'll just add my 2 cents...

Please stay where you are - Fl does not talk of moral objections to what is being notarized. Please re-read Msg #388241 and Msg #388248 .

After reading you further, I find you really don't have these moral convictions at all - you are just ruminating while chewing your cud.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 6/30/11 9:45pm
Msg #388330

And to add:

If refusing to notarize on moral objections how could you say it was not discriminatory?

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 6/30/11 9:40pm
Msg #388329

Re: I'll just add my 2 cents...

In Florida a notary (according to the Governor's Reference Manual but not, as far as I remember in the Fl Statutes section that govern notaries) may refuse to notarize if they are uncomfortable with the request. But from the manual:
A refusal to notarize may be viewed as an inconvenience to the signer or may be misinterpreted as unlawful discrimination. Therefore, notaries should be careful to refuse in a tactful manner. Tactfulness should not be a problem when the refusal is based on one of the statutory prohibitions, such as when the document is incomplete. The notary should explain that the law prohibits notarizing in that situation.
However, the situations in which a notary should refuse for precautionary reasons may be more difficult to explain. For example, suppose a notary suspects that the signer is being coerced or that the transaction may be illegal. In such situations, it may be best for notaries to simply explain that they are not comfortable with notarizing that document. No further explanation is necessary. Another good approach is for the notary to state that he or she is not familiar with the type of document involved. It is best not to be drawn into a debate regarding the refusal.

Reply by MW/VA on 6/30/11 9:29pm
Msg #388327

I can't quite believe this thread took off like it did. The

content is completely inappropriate, IMO. There is too much reference to religious & political viewpoints. I'm rather shocked that NR management allowed this one.
Yes, I understand this is about notarizations, but how did you allow yourself to be drawn in by XYZ's "push your buttons" kind of reporting/marketing. Don't your think it was deliberate on their part of get attention? I guess they succeeded with some.
I just deleted the email newsletter, as I always do. :-)

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 7/1/11 7:02am
Msg #388339

By the way.....The NNA does monitor this board.

The topic of a very recent thread ended up in their last newsletter.

Reply by MW/VA on 7/1/11 9:00am
Msg #388351

If they do, I'm sure they'd be thrilled to see the "stir"

that article caused here. :-(