Posted by Rani Sampson on 6/20/11 5:38pm
Msg #386984

Signing the Blind

Any tips for notarizing a blind person's signature? Yes, it's easy to check their IDs and to tell them where to sign. I wonder how the notary can be convinced the blind person knows what he is signing. He can say "my wife read it to me," but we didn't listen to her read 180 pages of documents to him.

Anyone have experience with this?

I suppose a lawyer should draft a separate oath for the wife/reader in which she swears she accurately read all of the documents to him.

Reply by Philip Johnson on 6/20/11 5:50pm
Msg #386987

I don't ask anyone else if they understood the deal

and I don't ask my blind customers either.

Every time I have signed with a blind person their spouse or trusted friend was there, I'd call out the form hand it to the person and their spouse/friend would set their hand on the line and off we go. The only form that most were most interested in was the note and once I called out the terms and it matched what was told to them on the phone by the bank, we're good to go.

Reply by 101livescan on 6/20/11 5:55pm
Msg #386989

I signed a HELOC last Friday, the 87 year old co-trustee on the Deed of Trust has been blind for over 20 years. His wife was there. They are on the deed of the property their three children are encumbering the property for.

He signed everywhere on the say so of his spouse and his three children so the property can be remodeled.

Every situation is different, obviously this loan is for everyone's benefit, so no issues.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 6/20/11 6:20pm
Msg #386990

Does your handbook address this?

In FL, we would have to read the entire document to the signer - WE, the notary, would have to do it...

I'd check with the SOS for proper procedure.

Reply by desktopfull on 6/20/11 6:34pm
Msg #386995

Re: Does your handbook address this?

I've done 4 closing for blind people and it took over 4 hours for each one. The TC never said a word about the person being blind either and argued over paying additional fees for the additional time and service.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 6/20/11 6:35pm
Msg #386996

I can only speak for CA, but we really aren't supposed to know if they actually understand what they're signing. In CA, they only have to express the nature of the document. The contents are not our concern or responsibility.

I had an attorney tell me that even *IF* the person is incapable of understanding the contents, it's not our business...and I tend to agree because a notarization does not impact the legality of a document in anyway. By law, if a person who is incapable of signing a contract does do, it's up to the courts to determine their capacity to sign, not us. We are only there to verify their identity.

For example, if a minor were to come to me with a rental contract, I cannot refuse to notarize his signature simply because he's a minor and has no legal authority to sign a contract. That would be making a legal determination/UPL and a big no-no. Some minors *are* legally allowed to do these things, and it's really none of my business to question them about it. Now, I may be socially sly about it... and take notes... but I won't butt in too much.

It's up to a court to determine the minor's capacity/legality, not us. We're only supposed to ask enough to determine the nature of the document. That's it.

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 6/20/11 7:22pm
Msg #387006

I have to disagree with you here, Marian

Firstly, you know I have the utmost respect for you. But I think you are overgeneralizing California's "notarization only authenticates the signature" concept.

The whole point of notarization and acknowledgments is to determine that a person signing the document is doing so voluntarily. Determining that the signer understands the document is a very basic part of the acknowledgment process. "Acknowledgment" is not defined in California law - nor is it defined in Florida law for that matter - but Black's Law Dictionary defines acknowledgment as "A formal declaration before an authorized official by a person signing an instrument
that such execution is his or her free act and deed".

Notaries do much more than simply witness a signature and verifying identification.

JMHO

Reply by MW/VA on 6/20/11 7:28pm
Msg #387007

I agree with you on this one, Robert. Willingness &

awareness are key elements to notarization. Case in point would be a POA. The person has to understand the ramifications of signing that document.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 6/20/11 8:53pm
Msg #387025

Re: I agree with you on this one, Robert. Willingness &

While I see what you mean, the CA SOS specifically tellsus that we are not responsible nor concernred with. The contents of a document. We can only do so much in having them idetitfy the purpose of a document. Clearly, if some body can't do that, there's an issue. Beyond that, we can't refuse to notarize a signature if we feel they don't "get" what they're signing. Its really beyond the scope of our job.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 6/21/11 1:58am
Msg #387048

Re: I agree with you on this one, Robert. Willingness &

yikes... I answered that on my mobile phone... oh well.

To elaborate, the CA Handbook clearly states, for example, that we can notarize signatures for documents in a foreign language.

It states, "A notary public can notarize a signature on a document in a foreign language with which the notary public is not familiar, since a notary public’s function only relates to the signature and not the contents of the document."

Again, I can only speak for CA... and Hugh can speak for TX. I know FL requires a few different things (like reading), but we don't.

For me, I always ask the person about the document. If they can clearly communicate the nature of it to me, and I am able to determine the same, I'm good to go. If they can't...then there's an issue and I will refuse, and have in situations where the person could not communicate with me. HOWEVER... that never means I'm saying that they are incapable of understanding something. To me, that's a legal decision and well beyond my job requirements.

I've notarized signatures of quite a few disabled people, including those who are blind, unable to speak, etc. Just about anything is possible.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 6/20/11 7:30pm
Msg #387008

I agree with Robert... n/m

Reply by HisHughness on 6/20/11 7:38pm
Msg #387012

I do not agree

In Texas, my job is to ID the signer. That's my job. No worry about the content of a document, or whether the signer understands it. I personally make it a point to make sure the signer has the mental capacity to sign, as best can be determined by a layman, and that the signature is voluntary. But I don't think the law requires that of me, and if I was ever sued on the basis of <not> having ascertained capacity or non-coercion, I think I could get judgment on the pleadings without ever going to trial.

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 6/20/11 8:28pm
Msg #387024

Wrong, Hugh

Texas Statutes 121.004 (a)

"To acknowledge a written instrument for recording, the grantor or person who executed the instrument must appear before an officer and must state that he executed the instrument for the purposes and consideration expressed in it."

A notarization is more than checking an ID. Checking ID is one part of the acknowledgment, but it is NOT the main part.

Reply by HisHughness on 6/20/11 9:22pm
Msg #387027

Re: Wrong, Hugh

I am sooooo right, Robert, I may be destined for beatification. The execution language is part of the oath, not part of the information the notary must ascertain. <I> do not need to determine the content of a document or the signer's understanding of the document, which was the original focus of the thread. <I> need to administer an oath; having done that, my job is done. It isn't my concern if a signer swears falsely, for example, unless I am confronted with clear and convincing evidence that the signer has done so, and frankly, Texas law is so flaccid, I don't think I really even have to worry about that.

You have a tendency to impose upon NPs everywhere what you understand Florida law to be. In fact, you go beyond even that: You tend to try to impose on NPs everywhere YOUR understanding of what is required of notaries.

As a notary, Texas law basically expects me to be breathing, and that my breath not be fatally tubercular. I can only wish that my various spouses had been so undemanding. Had that been the case, I would never have discovered the dubious rewards of serial polygamy.

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 6/21/11 8:34am
Msg #387058

We aren't talking about oaths; we are talking about

acknowledgments. I am curious to know what YOUR definition of an "acknowledgment" is. In most other states, it is a formal declaration before an authorized officer that someone has executed a document voluntarily.

I don't believe ANY state - including Texas - defines an acknowledgment as "checking ID".

JMHO.

Reply by HisHughness on 6/21/11 7:37pm
Msg #387188

Robert, you were right

Read that statement. Roll it around in your cerebellum. Try it orally, to see how it glides off the tongue.

I have had wives who waited years to hear that from me.

They are still waiting.

Years ago, it was with the statute you cited in mind that I rewrote the oath I use for jurats. Then, as when you cited it, through some sort of convoluted dyslexia I translated "acknowledgement" into "jurat." Don't ask me why, please. I can read. I actually know the difference: One is a short word and one is a long word. And it has colored the way I have handled acknowledgements since; all I have ever done with an acknowledgement is verify ID and signature.

Obviously, I need to do a little more. Thanks.

I know where you live. If you tell any of my ex-wives about this exchange, you will regret it.

Reply by Notarysigner on 6/20/11 8:14pm
Msg #387020

the word "Blind" doesn't even appear in the handbook!

I stand with Marian on this one. For both a jurat and an acknowledgment, the notary public
must certify to the identity of the signer. (Civil Code section 1189 and Government
Code section 8202)

Reply by NCLisa on 6/20/11 10:30pm
Msg #387038

Used a signature stamp

The last sight impaired person I did a closing for used a signature stamp. We tried a signature one time, and it was vertical and not horizontal. He'd been blind since birth and was skilled with a computer and braile, but could not write and especially date. He used a signature stamp, I helped him place it, and in NC a signature stamp is a "signature by mark" so I had to use the special verbiage on the notarized docs. I told him the highlights of each doc, no one else was there but me, him and the dog. His LO had gone over terms with him, and the docs had what he was told, so he was good with it.

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 6/21/11 12:50am
Msg #387047

Re: Signing the Blind - Huge problem in Ilinois. Our NP law

provides;
"(e) A notary public shall not take the acknowledgment of any person who is blind
until the notary has read the instrument to such person"
This would, of course, include a 15 page mortgage, with 10 pages of riders, and many other lengthey ,
detailed dox in a typical loan pkg.
Would be a race between NP and signer as to who would fall asleep first.
Thankfully, I have never been faced with the problem.
In a non NSA situation, the NP would still be limited to the $1.00 max fee per notarization.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 6/21/11 2:33am
Msg #387051

Wow....

I can see why those of you with that law fear that kind of thing. But, you know what? I don't think it would be right or even legal to try to charge more for this---seems to me that it would be a violation of ADA regulations.

For those of us where that isn't mandated (the reading bit), we'd probably have to be really careful about it.

I'd think that one way to help with that would be to send the electronic documents to the person, in advance, so they could utilize an electronic reader of some kind.

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 6/21/11 8:34am
Msg #387059

Same law in Florida

We have to read the entire document to the person before it can be notarized.

And I agree, we can not/should not charge extra for that.

Reply by Rani Sampson on 6/21/11 10:25am
Msg #387070

Re: Signing the Blind - Thoughtful Answers

Thanks, everyone, for your thoughtful answers to the question:

How does the notary confirm the blind person signed "as his free and voluntary act for the uses and purposes mentioned in the instrument" – if he’s never seen the instrument?

In Washington state, the requirements of valid attestation (of a will) are met where the notary interacted with the testator, could judge his competency, and declared that the testator signed the will in her presence. Our laws never mention blind signers.

The blind signer in my case will be in California, which has more law on the subject.

Thanks for all your responses. We make each other better Notaries Public.