Posted by Mike_D on 6/21/11 9:42am
Msg #387063

So This is what I Want to Know

I was thinking about this last night in the car.

All things considered. What is the floor that signing companies or title companies really want to get to here? I have been at this a long time. 150.00 down to 125.00 then 100.00. 75.00 seems to be the going rate now even though signing companies charge 150.00. Now we have people trying to get it down to 50.00? 45.00 even? I mean what the hell, when am I going to get the call for 20.00 with edocs???

Reply by jba/fl on 6/21/11 9:50am
Msg #387065

Stick around and let's see.....horrid state of affairs. n/m

Reply by CopperheadVA on 6/21/11 9:57am
Msg #387066

I've wondered the same thing...

I used to get $150 all day long without most companies even batting an eye. Now the fees routinely offered are half that, or less. That's quite a pay cut for us to absorb, what with expenses going up and not down.

I still have a few good clients that pay a decent fee because they place value on their loan being closed properly with no follow-up issues. But I also have a few companies that only pay my absolute bottom-of-the-barrel-that-I-will-accept-fee ($XXX), and those I have to limit to my zip code. Below that, I have to decline the job.

Reply by BobbiCT on 6/21/11 10:23am
Msg #387069

Notary public only fee ...

"Just a notary"

The maximum or less state-allowed notary public per notarization fee and, if the notary travels, the maximum amount allowed by law or less.

For example, in CT: Notary services only = $5 per notarization and travel at 35 cents per mile. If can't find a notary that will travel at a loss (IRS allows 51 cents per mile), go to the notary's office or find a "free" notary. Some borrowers now coming to my home office at $5 per notarization (out of their pocket with a receipt from me) or getting 2-3 notarizations done for FREE through their local bricks-and-motar bank customer service representative, local real estate agent, local accountant, or pay the local UPS store.

Reply by Les_CO on 6/21/11 10:53am
Msg #387073

The problem lies with us. There are Notaries out there that are accepting $40 signing jobs (Because it was close, or I really need the money, or I need the experience, etc.) There was a time when Title didn’t care what we charged the borrower they just put it on the HUD and let the borrower pay. Then some saw us as a way to make some ‘extra’ profit, they still charged the borrower $300/$150 for notary/remote closing fees and found they could pay the notary $150 to $50 and keep the difference. Then you have Signing companies,(like ND) going to Title and saying “We can get the same notaries/same job done, as the signing company you are using now that charges you $150, and we can do it for only $125 to $100, saving you $25 to $50 per signing.” At say 50 signings a month that can add up. In these lean times maybe enough to mean the difference between staying in business or not. The Signing Companies that were paying us $125 per, can no longer, they can’t pay us more than they charge, and they must make something to pay overhead. If they can now only charge $125 to $100 to stay competitive they must pay us less or close down. And so goes the downward spiral. This is now a part time business, and I believe will become more so. I see $50 signings becoming the norm, and all signing companies except those in-house (like FASS) or very lowball like ND leaving the business. JMO

Reply by NJDiva on 6/21/11 11:02am
Msg #387075

Same on you Les... :)

Don't even put that out there PLEASE! Though I KNOW you're not CONDONING it, it sounds like it...to my sensitive eyes anyway...lol...

Cancel, cancel, cancel that thought and premise right now before it goes any further...lol, hurry, catch it while you can...lol

Reply by NJDiva on 6/21/11 11:03am
Msg #387076

oops...that was supposed to be..

shame on you...duh..

Reply by Les_CO on 6/21/11 4:30pm
Msg #387154

Re: oops...that was supposed to be..

No not shame on me…but shame on US!
As I said “the problem lies with US” (Notary Signing Agents) Supposedly not one person reading, or participating on this board takes a $50 signing. Why is it that ND is still in business? Or SOX, or Genuine Title? Someone IS taking that business. If no one would take these lowball offers, the companies that need our services (YES there are many companies that NEED our services, as long as Title companies do business in places where they don’t have brick and mortar offices for the borrower/buyer to come to) they will NEED us.
But YES this is America, and the owner of a small Title Company doesn’t give a fig about us or our worth. They want the job DONE and at the lowest price they can get. Their main concern is getting customers, in today’s lean market getting customers and keeping them is crucial. No they don’t want problems with the packages; yes they do want them done correctly, and on time. But do you think ND and their like say: “ We hire the cheapest, most in experienced, semi-morons we can get?” No they say they hire commissioned notaries, or licensed attorneys and they guarantee the work. The Title company owner just wants the signed notarized package back, and doesn’t care who notarized it, but would prefer to pay $100 for the service than $200. Simple.
The other thing that is simple is that if EVERY notary signing agent out there whether experienced or not tomorrow demanded $150 per signing job, that’s what Title or the SS would pay. But WE DON’T so they DON’T. JMO

Reply by NJDiva on 6/21/11 6:46pm
Msg #387177

EXACTLY LES! n/m

Reply by Susan Rindermann on 6/21/11 11:08am
Msg #387077

Notary fee no longer just pays for the service of the signin

The notary signing fee has become an extra source of revenue for title/signing companies. Instead of it being a fee for service, like with appraisers, it is a service where other entities in the process (title or SS) can take a piece of the pie. So our fee is partly revenue for someone else.

And now, more than ever, with their volume down, our fee is seen as a way for them to bring in extra income to stay afloat. The borrowers are not saving money. It is just that more of our fee is being funneled other places.

As independent contractors we cannot afford to fund part of a company that is hurting. We are our own company with expenses and should be paid for the service we provide. Just like appraisers.

Reply by NJDiva on 6/21/11 11:24am
Msg #387078

YES, YES, YES (u should hear the tone & inflection on THAT!)

"As independent contractors we cannot afford to fund part of a company that is hurting. We are our own company with expenses and should be paid for the service we provide. Just like appraisers."

Amen sista!

Reply by BrendaTx on 6/21/11 11:35am
Msg #387081

True & SSs take more of the fee because they are doing

less deals. They are using the margin between what is paid by title and what is paid to notary as a piggy bank.

Rather than finding other means of revenue to continue in business they are ignoring the fact that they just suck the marrow out of the bones forever.

It's like they can't figure out how to do anything else with their businesses to make more money...the end is in sight for them. They just refuse to acknowledge that it will take more than 75% of every deal (rather than paying notary properly) to close up the gap.

In the final analysis, I believe that the smartest business savvy NSAs will remain standing...there are only so many buffalo to kill...then you need to figure out how to do something else.

Reply by 101livescan on 6/21/11 11:39am
Msg #387083

Re: True & SSs take more of the fee because they are doing

Good analogy...we'll be watching the implosion of SSs in the coming years....just not enough pie any more.

Reply by HrdwrkrVA on 6/21/11 12:03pm
Msg #387087

The reality of it is that a $50 or $75 fee is just not

realistic in becoming the norm.
1. The SA's that take these fees & do volume at that price WILL be out of business shortly. You just cannot stay in business AND lose money for long.

2. The SA's that are desperate/new/doing volume will run the SS's out of business b/c of the errors/ unprofessionalism, etc. The prosessional SA's will retire/ move to another industry.

3. It'll cost the TCs money b/c of errors or perpetually late SAs ( again, doing volume - & can't afford to say "no") - they'll have to refund some of their closing costs back to BOs. Some bo's will walk/ find another TC, etc.

4. It'll cost the LOs money b/c of errors or perpetually late SAs doing volume) - they'll have to refund some of their closing costs back to BOs. Somwe bo's will walk/ find another LO, and NO referrals, etc.

The fees might get there short-term, but there would be a dearth of QUALIFIED SAs willing to LOSE money plain & simple. Unless you are retired or have an SO w/ a really decent income - you just cannot make it on $40 or $50 signings. In the end everyone would get what they pay for: crappy fees for crappy service. The industry would collapse in on itself like a house of card/ dominoes - whatever. JMO

Reply by CopperheadVA on 6/21/11 12:10pm
Msg #387088

Re: The reality of it is that a $50 or $75 fee is just not

<< perpetually late SAs doing volume >>

Yup, I got called about a week ago for a same-day job (1 PM) where the notary that had been originally booked had called the borrowers and told them that she was bumping it to 4 PM due to her schedule that day. She is now on the DO NOT CALL list for that TC and SS.

Reply by Notarysigner on 6/21/11 12:20pm
Msg #387089

Re: The reality of it is that a $50 or $75 fee is just not

and as I mentioned in a previous post, when these errors are made by NSA accepting low fees in the first place, are they willing to go back out for free to make the correction on their diam??? I don't think so.

Reply by BobbiCT on 6/21/11 12:01pm
Msg #387086

No, No not "just like appraisers" ...

INDEPENDENT Residential appraisers used to get $250-$375 per appraisal. Then came subprime meltdown and the Government FIXED that.

Appraisers must now work through "vendor management companies," which collect the $325 appraisal fee and then pay the appraiser $75. This is why you hear about so many problems with today's appraisals. Instead of using the Local, Independent Professional appraiser, the vendor management company farms out the work to the lowest fee; sometimes an appraiser 50 miles away who hasn't a clue what the local market is like and, for $75, certainly isn't going to take an afternoon to find out.

Reply by garland/CA on 6/21/11 1:17pm
Msg #387105

thanks for the clarification n/m

Reply by BrendaTx on 6/21/11 2:19pm
Msg #387120

Re: No, No not "just like appraisers" ...

*Appraisers must now work through "vendor management companies," which collect the $325 appraisal fee and then pay the appraiser $75. This is why you hear about so many problems with today's appraisals. Instead of using the Local, Independent Professional appraiser, the vendor management company farms out the work to the lowest fee; sometimes an appraiser 50 miles away who hasn't a clue what the local market is like and, for $75, certainly isn't going to take an afternoon to find out.*

Bobbi - Do you have a keyword I can use to look up this info about the government's requirements? I'm almost sure that I would have heard if that was a requirement in this area....but I've been wrong before.

Reply by Teresa/FL on 6/21/11 2:34pm
Msg #387128

Brenda, try HVCC - Home Valuation Code of Conduct n/m

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 6/21/11 2:45pm
Msg #387129

HVCC is national.

Most vendor management companies are owned by the lenders themselves. It becomes another lucrative profit center for the lender.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 6/22/11 4:27pm
Msg #387306

Re: No, No not "just like appraisers" ...

I don't know that the fees being paid to appraisers now are as low as $75, but I do know that a) the appraisal fees have gone up to account for the middleman, b) the appraisers are getting less than they used to, and c) the appraisers being sent often do not have any real familiarity with the area (at least this is true in NY).

Personal experience - I had a really simple real estate deal fall through because the appraisal came in at $25K under the contract price. The appraiser was not familiar with the area, and used comps that were totally out of whack (and refused to even look at the comps the listing agent and I provided to justify the selling price). When the listing agent and I challenged her on the appraisal, she said that according to the law she wasn't supposed to talk about it with us (not true), and then finally admitted that she was working under bank guidelines (which she was not supposed to be doing). Buyer and seller could not agree on what to do about it, so the deal died and 2 months of work on my part went up in smoke...

Reply by JanetK_CA on 6/21/11 8:43pm
Msg #387195

Re: No, No not "just like appraisers" ...

That's what I've heard, too. The good ole law of unintended consequences - that backfired. So now they're more interconnected with the lenders, not less. The appraisers I know are struggling just like us and the borrowers are more and more unhappy with the results. Very sad!

Reply by trnsa_IL on 6/21/11 9:03pm
Msg #387198

"appraisers I know are struggling just like us"

I have a friend who was an appraiser, and he had to get an unrelated job about a year ago due to the changes. Sad...

Reply by MW/VA on 6/21/11 12:26pm
Msg #387093

I don't have an answer to this dilemna. It's simple

Economics 101--supply & demand. During the "bubble" there was a high demand, and less supply meant higher fees. Now the opposites true, greater supply than demand. That always drives prices down.
I'm getting a lot fewer calls than last year, and am still holding to a fee of $100. The days of higher fees from tc's, etc., just aren't there. I can still occasionally get $125 or $150, but that isn't the norm.
I have a choice to continue working at this or hang it up. This is still the best option for my situation.
I don't accept the low fees because I'd end up losing money that way. I haven't gotten those calls for $50, $60, or $70 signings, but I'm sure they're going to someone. :-(

Reply by Notarysigner on 6/21/11 12:32pm
Msg #387098

Ditto MW! n/m

Reply by mwm143 on 6/21/11 1:51pm
Msg #387112

Out with the old and in with the new

With the massive influx of new signing agents over the last year, they are being groomed by the SS and TC to believe that $85 is an above average fee and $50 is the norm. Imagine their joy when they get a call for $100. In another year or two when they become the "seasoned professionals" and $65 is top earning and $35 is the norm they will be feeling the same way we feel as the newbies move in and accept those fees.

Reply by MW/VA on 6/21/11 2:23pm
Msg #387123

Re: Out with the old and in with the new

No different that corporate America that lays off experienced, higher-paid employees & replaces them with someone they can pay less. All anyone cares about anymore is their bottom-line & Profit is the name of the game.

Reply by NJDiva on 6/21/11 3:03pm
Msg #387140

This IS America, afterall!!!

"All anyone cares about anymore is their bottom-line & Profit is the name of the game."

Reply by NJDiva on 6/21/11 3:10pm
Msg #387141

NOT CONDONING IT...just sayin!! n/m

Reply by HrdwrkrVA on 6/21/11 4:26pm
Msg #387152

Yeah, but if you have to buy your own paper, toner & gas

& other supplies (not to mention your overhead - over which you have NO control), you'll eventually go out of business!!! What will then happen is there will be rapid turnover b/c the $40 & $50 signings willl NOT pay for your supplies AND overhead!! Sure, you'll have ppl jumping at the chance to make $40 -$50 per hr. The reality will hit them when they buy supplies & pay for utilies. Then they'll get an even bigger slap in the face when they see that you can't do 8-10 signings in 8-10 hrs! That's when they'll find out about LATE DOCS & TRAVEL TIME (not to mention last min cxls). that's when they'll find out you have to SPACE your appts out! Tha't's when they'll find out .... the list goes on. Alot of you mention travelling over 50 miles! In this congested metro area, I keep it to 25 & under b/c of the time. I have had TCs send me docs 10-15 min before a signing & the SS back them up that it was BEFORE my appt. They don't care that I had another appt 1 1/2 -2 hrs later & the print time & rush hr eats into my originally sched time! I NEVER make the folks whose pprwrk is ready ON TIME wait for some imbeciles (TCs NOT BOs) whose pprwrk is late! That's when they'll find out how many TC's are unprofessional & don't meet reasonable deadlines AND those anticipated 40 (yeah - right) signings per week, will in reality be 10-15 - iF they're lucky. With the mkt the way it is, it may 7-10. Are you going to make it off $280 - $350 per week??? Remeber - you're buying your OWN supplies AND overhead!!! Again, you better be reitred (w/ a gud pension) and/ or have a real sweet sugar daddy/ mama/spouse or SO!!!

Reply by Les_CO on 6/21/11 4:50pm
Msg #387158

Re: NOT CONDONING IT...just sayin!!

The sad thing is that, especially for those of us that have been doing this for years, apparently some doing this just don’t get it? They (we) have killed the goose that laid the golden egg. By working for the low-ballers, they perpetuate them in business, and FORCE the good, well paying, signing companies out of business. Do any of you say to the SS that calls you and offers $125 for a signing, “Oh NO I now take $75, or even $50 for a signing if it’s close, That’s what I charge your competition, so to be fair I’ll charge you the same?” I’d guess not many. So the next time you hear of a good SS or title company closing, or paying less…. guess who you should blame. JMO

Reply by NJDiva on 6/21/11 6:51pm
Msg #387179

Unfortunately you are absolutely right Les.

*as tears come to my eyes* It's a crying shame!!!

Reply by BrendaTx on 6/21/11 7:16pm
Msg #387184

Hitting the target as usual, Les. n/m

Reply by MW/VA on 6/22/11 2:52pm
Msg #387276

True, but how many shop at Walmart these days for those

exact same reasons?