Posted by Hall on 1/9/12 1:00pm
Msg #408530

Ugh, first notary act, not sure I did right

I was referred a job to go notarize a will signing...it was a last minute thing so I had limited time to research and prepare.

Apparently many VA notaries won't do wills and only will if the ack is pre-printed...when I arrived, nothing was printed correctly for me to notarize.

There were two blank lines and then"ss"

Below that was a signature block for the person to whom the will belonged and his witnesses.

I did verify that everyone is who they say they are and witnessed their signatures.

I added verbage under their signature block that stated that they proved to me their identity and then signed and stamped.

Did I royally screw this up?

Reply by MW/VA on 1/9/12 1:02pm
Msg #408531

I'm a bit confused. Are you in CA or VA? n/m

Reply by Hall on 1/9/12 1:06pm
Msg #408533

Re: I'm a bit confused. Are you in CA or VA?

I am in Virginia; I forgot to change the state when I signed up...it defaulted to CA.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 1/9/12 1:05pm
Msg #408532

Most states, and I think this includes California, only allow notaries to do two acts that might be related to wills: administer an oath/affirmation or take an acknowledgement. Accepting proof of identity is part of both these acts in CA*, but not the whole act. So it seems you did not perform a complete notarial act.

*I understand some states don't require notaries to verify a person's identity before administering an oath/affirmation.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 1/9/12 1:17pm
Msg #408535

The lack of notarial verbiage is the least of your problems. First of all, CA notaries don't do wills .... except under very special circumstances. (Like if the will be probated in another state). Was this by chance a living will, which is a different animal and is OK to notarize.

CA wills generally do not require notarization. Sometimes an attorney will want a will notarized but you needed to have known that before proceeding. Notarizing a will could invalidate it down the road .... you might consider alerting the signer(s) to see a lawyer at this point... notarizing a will in CA could be considered UPL. Except, are you in VA???

Reply by Hall on 1/9/12 1:18pm
Msg #408536

I am in VA.

Reply by Hall on 1/9/12 1:20pm
Msg #408537

I am in VA, I updated my profile...

...and it won't change.

Reply by MW/VA on 1/9/12 1:38pm
Msg #408540

Call NR to get it cleared up. n/m

Reply by MW/VA on 1/9/12 1:45pm
Msg #408541

Some notaries choose not to get involved in the signing

of wills. I've done many, since again I'm only acting as a notary & witnessing the signature of the principal & any witnesses. It sounds like that's exactly what you did.
The important thing to remember that notarizing a will doesn't make it legal. We don't, of course, provide forms or advice.
The 2 blank lines you described are for the venue (Commonwealth of VA, then County or City).
It sounds like the verbage was for an Acknowledgement.
If you haven't already done so, you can go the the SOC site and download & print the latest (2011) Notary Handbook.
Good luck & welcome to the forum. :-)

Reply by HisHughness on 1/9/12 2:03pm
Msg #408543

In Texas, and I suspect in virtually every other state, a testator's signature is not notarized. In Texas, <if the will is self-proving>, two witnesses are required and the signatures of those two witnesses are notarized.

As part of the initial phone conversation, the notary should discuss with the caller the nature of the document, and what form of notarial certification <the signer> will be providing.

All that aside, however, you need to hear this loud and clear: IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING, DON'T DO IT. Notaries are required in all sorts of transactions ranging from the routine through the significant to the life-changing. Your lack of knowledge of what is required of you can have major negative consequences. What if, in this case, for example, the testator has only a short-term life-expectancy, and wanted to resolve all matters of his estate before his death? Would your action have ruined what he was trying to do?

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 1/9/12 2:12pm
Msg #408545

In Fla., we take the acknowledgment of the testator and

the oaths of the witnesses.

Reply by NMS/FL on 1/9/12 4:14pm
Msg #408557

FL Wills and Self-Proving Wills

In Florida we don't notarize wills either. A valid will is simply the testator's signature signing in front of two subscribing witnesses. If the will is a self-proving will, then we take an acknowledgment from the testator and a sworn oath (jurat) from each of the two subscribing witnesses. Identification would, of course be required of all signing parties. The notary can sign as one of the witnesses on a Florida will, but can not sign a FL self-proving will since you can't notarize your own signature. Codicil's are executed in the same manner as the will / self-proving will.

Reply by MikeC/TX on 1/9/12 6:06pm
Msg #408565

Yeah, I think you may have screwed it up...

"I added verbage under their signature block that stated that they proved to me their identity and then signed and stamped."

First of all, I agree completely with Hugh's comments - if you don't know what you're doing, don't do it.

Every state has different rules regarding the notarization of wills, and I have no idea what they are in VA, but what you're describing is not a proper notarization in ANY state. It's either got to be a jurat or an acknowledgment - from your brief description of what you did, it was neither and you MAY have invalidated the will by doing it. Even if you actually added the correct verbiage for an acknowledgment in your state, that's not your job - they're supposed to tell YOU whether an ack or a jurat is required, so now you're looking at the possibility of UPL...

In my opinion, you need to fess up and let these people know that the notarization may not have been done properly so they can take steps to correct it if necessary. Your embarrassment at admitting a mistake is nothing compared to the potential consequences they may be looking at because of that mistake.

And before you do another notarization, do yourself and your clients a favor - make sure you know what the requirements are in your state. There may be a reason why a lot of VA notaries won't touch wills.

I apologize if this seems harsh, but you're dealing with some serious stuff here...

Reply by CopperheadVA on 1/9/12 6:59pm
Msg #408568

You are correct that many VA notaries refuse to notarize wills. The owner/notary of my local pack and ship place where I drop all my packages - she refuses to notarize wills because she says that's the one document that she could get called into court for later. In VA, I typically see the self-proving affidavit is the document that requires notarization (not the will itself). Typically, on the ones I've seen, the sigantures of the testator and the witnesses are notarized.

Reply by MikeC/TX on 1/9/12 10:35pm
Msg #408580

"she refuses to notarize wills because she says that's the one document that she could get called into court for later"

Actually, she can get called into court later for any document, but I see her point...

If I remember correctly, in NY it was only the witnesses on the self-proving affidavit. Often the will was executed and witnessed at the lawyer's office (assuming the will was drawn by a lawyer), and the SPA was notarized at the same time. I know of at least one case (in which I was personally involved, but not as a notary) where an attorney notarized the SPA for his own will - I'm not sure if that's kosher, but I do know there were probate problems after he died...

Reply by Hall on 1/9/12 8:44pm
Msg #408575

In Virginia, wills do not need to be notarized at all, actually, so I don't think I invalidated the will.

The verbage that I added came directly from a generic acknowledgment form. It was more articulate that what I wrote above.

In reflection, I think I was placed in a bad position and I shouldn't have allowed that. I should've refused to notarize when the docs weren't in order.

I won't make that mistake again! I guess that's how we learn. :-(

Thank you everyone for your input and insight.

Reply by CopperheadVA on 1/9/12 9:16pm
Msg #408576

What you described in your posts is exactly why many VA notaries refuse to notarize wills. Too many people try do them on the cheap and the paperwork is not in order. When I get Will calls, I do ask if the Will was prepared by an attorney or a legal document preparation service, and I do ask if the notary certificate is already pre-printed on the document. I also ask if the will requires witnesses and tell the caller that they must secure the witnesses.

Here is a page from the VA State Bar that I link to on my website FAQ page:
http://www.vsb.org/site/publications/wills-in-virginia/

Item #4 addresses notarization for Wills in VA.

Reply by MW/VA on 1/10/12 8:15am
Msg #408586

Thanks, Linda. That's a good reference. I am still of the

opinion that it's not our job to advise if the form is legal or not. I haven't run into any that weren't in the proper format, however. Again, the notarization usually is for the Self-Proving Affidavit.

Reply by rengel/CA on 1/10/12 12:19pm
Msg #408614

"In Virginia, wills do not need to be notarized at all, actually, so I don't think I invalidated the will."

Just because they don't need to be notarized doesn't mean that you didn't incalidate it. It is my understanding that in California you CAN invalidate a will by notarizing it and not having it "witnessed."

Please take everyone's good advise and get yourself better educated on notary law in the State of Virinia before attempting any further notarizaions.

My .02

Reply by Ernest__CT on 1/10/12 11:36am
Msg #408605

Stop notarizing and get yourself educated.

Yes, you screwed up. Big time. Call the person whose will you may have invalidated and confess. Your butt will be on the line if the will is declared invalid.

Go study your state's Notary Public Manual. If classes are offered, take them. And don't notarized anything until you are competent todo so.

Reply by budman63/tn on 1/10/12 2:04pm
Msg #408631

Re: Stop notarizing and get yourself educated.

Why is it that everytime a noobie ask for help or guidance, all you guys (Ernest,Hugh) belittle and are outright mean to people. I thought this forum was to help each other. I get a lot of referrals due to Notary Rotary (thank you) and I still ask questions about topics that I might not be sure of or want to verify in the forum. You can make comments, etc. ,but, you don't need to be mean about it. Just a thought. I'm curious to see what others think.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 1/10/12 2:10pm
Msg #408633

Budman, they're not being mean so much as firm,

to the point and truthful. This is a serious matter - here you have a notary who did a job with no idea what he's doing (no-no #1), he took a "guess" as to the right way to handle it (no-no #2) and of all things it was on a Will - which if he did it wrong, this won't be found out til the signer is dead and his heirs/beneficiaries can't carry out the terms of the document they THOUGHT was in order.

No matter what the doc is - we all make mistakes, but if one does not know what they're doing, they should either ask questions FIRST or don't take the job - you don't ask these vital questions after the fact.

JMO

Reply by NJDiva on 1/10/12 7:09pm
Msg #408676

Budman, they're not being mean however, I must agree, they

are certainly sounding mean, harsh, brash, callous inconsiderate, unkind whatever you want to call it. But one thing is for sure, the JUDGE that this person is going to be standing in front of will most likely be much "meaner" than posted here if this isn't made right.

Don't get me wrong. I don't condone anyone being belittled, or verbally abused especially when they're brave enough to come on and share their potential screw up or have questions that they could find answers to via the orange search button. I think sometimes people tend to beat a dead horse here which makes it seem even harsher.

Sometimes I find responses offensive and feel bad for the person, but at the same time, we are adults with a pretty vital responsibility and should take that responsibility seriously.

As always happens when issues such as these come up, it's such a HUGE learning experience FOR EVERYONE, in my opinion. Unfortunately, it's at that persons expense; but I, for one am very grateful that he had the courage enough to come on and share his potentially grave mistake.

Lesson learned I hope.

Reply by Hall on 1/12/12 3:36am
Msg #408794

Re: Budman, they're not being mean however, I must agree, they

I didn't find the responses too mean or harsh in the beginning, however, midway through I thanked everyone for their response and admitted fault, and stated I had learned my lessons and the "quit notorizing" messages kept coming which were completely unnecessary.

As previously stated, I was put in a bad position, but I unfortunately allowed it and it won't happen again. It's my fault for assuming that the ones who referred the job to me had pre-qualified the clients (meaning, ensured the document was ready to be notarized) and also assuming that the lawyer who drew it up knew what he was doing. Assuming is wrong. Additionally, upon viewing the document, I should've refused to notarize it. I tried to "be nice" and make the best of it which was the wrong decision. As stated above, it will not happen again. I will stick with notarizing documents with which I am familiar.