Posted by franny on 1/24/12 8:28am
Msg #409720

foreign language doc

what are the rules when a notary is presented with a doc to notarized and it is written in a foreign language, in this case Chinese

Reply by Roger_OH on 1/24/12 8:55am
Msg #409722

Check your state laws for any specific restrictions.

In my state, a foreign language document is treated just like any other. So long as the signer can confirm to the notary they are aware of the document content, are signing it willingly, and they can be properly ID'd, the signature can be notarized. You would have to ask the signer if the document is a sworn statement, and administer the oath if required.

The notarization is in English, and a loose ack or jurat is attached.

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 1/24/12 8:59am
Msg #409724

If the signer understands the document, it doesn't matter what language it is printed in. However, your certificate should be in English.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 1/24/12 11:31am
Msg #409729

Some others claim the certificate must be in English. But no one has cited a New Jersey law or rule that says this. Of course, if a Chinese certificate were requested, the person who decides if this is OK should be an expert in Chinese law, New Jersey law, and fluent in both English and Chinese. That leaves out most, if not all, of the posters here.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 1/24/12 12:01pm
Msg #409731

VT_Syrup...let me ask you this..

if the certificate is in a language you don't understand, how can you complete and sign it - you have no way of knowing what it says or if it's compliant with your state laws. I think that's why it's required that the cert be in English - it's common sense. I know I, personally, would not sign a cert or affix my seal if I didn't know what it said.

Reply by Victoria_NJ on 1/24/12 12:13pm
Msg #409732

According to the NJ Title Rate Manual. . .

http://www.nj.gov/treasury/revenue/dcr/geninfo/notarymanual.shtml

Requirements for Taking an Acknowledgment
The Notary should:
ĦREVIEW THE DOCUMENT PRESENTED FOR COMPLETENESS the document presented for completeness. This is not a formal legal review, such as would be performed by an accountant or an attorney. Rather, it is a review to ensure that there are no blanks in the document. Should blanks be discovered, the signer must either fill them in or strike them out by drawing a line or "X" through them.

That being said, I'd suggest that the signer read the document to YOU, so you know if there are places not marked with an open ____________ (as to dates to be written in, names, addresses, etc.) OR have an interpreter come to the closing if the signer doesn't speak fluent Chinese and English.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 1/24/12 12:24pm
Msg #409733

Re: VT_Syrup...let me ask you this..

The previous answers said the certificate must be in English. So where is the law or rule that says a New Jersey notary who is also a New Jersey lawyer, familiar with the law in the Chinese-speaking region where the document is to be sent, and fluent in Chinese, is not allowed to write the certificate in English? Just because you or I would not be able to do it does not mean no one is allowed to do it.

Reply by HisHughness on 1/24/12 12:32pm
Msg #409734

I know of nothing in my jurisdiction...

...that would require a certificate be in English if the notarizer was conversant enough in the language in which the certificate was written to understand it.

Mi espanol es muy limitado, pero [and that, indeed, is the limit of it] if I had had prepared jurats and acknowledgements in Spanish, and knew what each said, then I would have no problem using a prepared certificate.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 1/24/12 1:11pm
Msg #409736

Oops; should be "write the certificate in CHINESE" n/m

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 1/24/12 1:23pm
Msg #409738

That isn't what I asked you

I asked you if you'd sign and stamp a certificate written in a foreign language that you could not read and, therefore, could not understand.

Thankfully FL is clear on this - certificates are to be in English..

Reply by bagger on 1/24/12 1:29pm
Msg #409739

Regulations may vary

But in Illinois, all you are doing is notarizing the signature.
If the affiant understands the document, and you are convinced that the signer understands the document and is not signing under duress, then you can notarize the signing.
You are NOT an attorney, all a notary does is validate that the signer provided documentation and understood what he/she was signing.
This is NOT a complicated job.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 1/24/12 2:13pm
Msg #409742

Re: That isn't what I asked you

If your question is what would *I* do if someone wanted me to notarize with a Chinese-language certificate, I would decline, and suggest the person find a Chinese-speaking lawyer or go to a consulate for the appropriate nation (Republic of China or People's Republic of China). If the signer asked if it were possible for the certificate to be in Chinese, I would reply that I don't know.

Even if I spoke Chinese, I would still send the person to a lawyer or consulate, because I don't know if Chinese law has a legal concept that corresponds to the American concept of acknowledgement or statement under oath. ~~~~

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 1/24/12 2:39pm
Msg #409743

Re: That isn't what I asked you

Actually a Chinese speaking lawyer nor a consulate are the correct entities to look to for an answer..
The only entity that could answer if the certificate could be in any other language is your state's notary division. A notary has to follow the notary laws in their state, regardless of what a foreign consulate or lawyer advises.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 1/24/12 2:56pm
Msg #409744

Re: That isn't what I asked you

A lawyer should know what resources to use to figure out the answer; that might include consulting the Secretary of State's office or the county assistant judges (who appoint notaries). If the notarization were performed within a consulate, the consulate would be considered the territory of the appropriate nation, so US and state law would be irrelevant.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 1/24/12 5:45pm
Msg #409755

Re: That isn't what I asked you

"A lawyer should know what resources to use to figure out the answer"

A lawyer is the LAST resource I'd use for answers on notary law - trust this from someone in the field...they have no idea.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 1/24/12 6:04pm
Msg #409757

Re: That isn't what I asked you

I originally was going to write "A lawyer would know" but changed it to "A lawyer should know" because of all the reports of clueless lawyers I've heard. For better or worse, lawyers are the only ones allowed to do legal research for a client, so there is no choice.

Reply by Roger_OH on 1/24/12 6:21pm
Msg #409759

With ya about the lawyers, Linda!!

I've not run across any aspect of the legal system that knows less about notary law than lawyers. Here in Ohio (and many states), they basically have only to check a box on the bar exam, and poof, they're a notary. They receive virtually no training in school about the role, responsibilities, and risks of the notary office.

On The Ohio Society of Notaries telephone "helpline", about a third of the calls we get are from attorneys without a clue about signing procedures, documents, or best practices, and the Ohio Supreme Court disciplinary files are chock-full of attorneys who misused their commission. Some were just negligent, some were outright fraudulent, but most were just ignorant of the notary laws, and in many cases it cost them dearly.

I've taken steps to try and help by creating and presenting the Notary Law seminar for the Ohio State Bar Association's continuing legal education program. It is well-received as the only resource attorneys have for straight Ohio information in a real-world setting; attorneys come up to me afterwards just shaking their heads, and voicing the common theme of "I had no idea how much trouble I could get into with this little stamp"...

Reply by HisHughness on 1/24/12 9:19pm
Msg #409780

I resent this remark, Roger

***I've not run across any aspect of the legal system that knows less about notary law than lawyers.***

I don't deny it, understand, I just resent it. It's grossly unfair to engage in such a lopsided fight with lawyers. If you're gonna fight with lawyers, you ought to do it using weapons that they know something about, and that eliminates the truth.

Attorneys do not regard notaries as bulwarks against fraud. They think that is the lawyer's job. Attorneys regard notaries as hindrances, as nuisiances that the law puts in their way for reasons known only to God and whatever beknighted besotted legislators insisted that they be there.

Reply by Susan Fischer on 1/25/12 1:22am
Msg #409811

Roger, this is important info, but does not diminish the

legal profession as a whole, nor its inherent personal ethos.

It's that broad brush again.

Reply by Roger_OH on 1/25/12 10:24am
Msg #409827

Susie, Hugh has it right...

I'm not denigrating the legal profession, only the lack of notary knowledge by many attorneys that have no training.

I liked Hugh's comment about the attorney perception of notaries.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 1/24/12 6:28pm
Msg #409760

Re: That isn't what I asked you

With you on that Linda
I did a signing where the borrower was an attorney and a notary (this is the same signing I mentioned in an earlier post about Service Link).
He prepares wills for his clients, when his clients sign the wills his wife is a witness to their signatures and he does the notarizations!
I let him know that he cannot notarize his wife's signature and he said he knew of no law that said he couldn't. I showed him the relevant statute and he just said that there was no way any of the wills would be contested so it didn't really matter!! Sheesh!

Reply by Susan Fischer on 1/24/12 6:56pm
Msg #409763

er, Linda H/FL, I hope you don't really mean that; we have

on this very forum, outstanding lawyers quite fluent in their respective states' Notarial laws.

You paint with a broad brush, my friend.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 1/24/12 8:04pm
Msg #409773

Some of the attorneys on this board are the exception

to the rule - as a general rule I would not rely on an attorney as my final word on notary law...sorry...that's my experience.

Reply by Susan Fischer on 1/25/12 1:17am
Msg #409810

So your "general rule" is to ignore legal advice? How odd. n/m

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 1/25/12 5:13am
Msg #409816

Your spin, Susie..your spin...

Did I say ignore legal advice? No I did not. But it's my experience that attorneys, for the most part, can't be bothered with notary law - they've too much else going on..

Back off Susie and stay with the topic.

Reply by HisHughness on 1/24/12 5:00pm
Msg #409750

Linda & Robert, both of you have asserted that in Florida...

...notary certificates must be in English. I don't question whether that is the case, but could you please provide a cite? Thanks.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 1/24/12 5:13pm
Msg #409752

Hugh, page 37 of our manual

"For a person who is signing a document written in a foreign language not understood
by the notary. Remember, you are not responsible for the contents of the document, but you need to exercise caution in this situation. Follow these recommendations:

Make sure that you can communicate verbally with the document signer or that a qualified,
trustworthy translator is present.

Determine, if possible, that the document is complete.

Check the document for a notarial certificate. If the document does not have a notarial
certificate, ask the document signer for instructions. If he directs you which notarial act is
appropriate for his document, proceed by adding the correct certificate and completing the
notarization. If he does not know, refuse to notarize.

Complete the notarial certificate in English. The certificate may be translated into the
language of the document, but the translated certificate should not be signed and sealed by
the notary.

If you are unsure about the notarization, you should refuse to notarize."

http://www.flgov.com/wp-content/uploads/notary/ref_manual23-40.pdf

Reply by HisHughness on 1/24/12 5:53pm
Msg #409756

That seems clear enough.

It also seems unduly restrictive, without any clear purpose for being so. In Texas, as long as I understand what it says and regardless of whether I speak the language, I think I could execute a certificate in uzbeckibeckistanstanstanish.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 1/24/12 6:19pm
Msg #409758

Hugh, if you don't speak or read the language

how can you be 100% sure what it says?

Reply by Susan Fischer on 1/24/12 7:53pm
Msg #409769

Linda, no one is 100% sure of any translation. As a

matter of fact, even among common language speakers, people often get things wrong, no?

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 1/24/12 8:00pm
Msg #409771

Susie, I'm not sure where your thinking is going on this

we're talking signing a cert written in a language not understood by the notary...after reading your posts to this thread I'm of the firm belief that perhaps you should read the whole thread before you jump in eyes wide shut.

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 1/24/12 9:24pm
Msg #409783

Common sense. English is still the standard language

in this country.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 1/24/12 9:36pm
Msg #409786

Re: Common sense. English is still the standard language

International business exists. International tourism exists. Is it reasonable to expect foreigners who are doing business with Americans, or who are just visiting and doing business with their home countries while her, to only use English?

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 1/24/12 10:16pm
Msg #409795

Those persons can get notarizations at their consulate n/m

Reply by VT_Syrup on 1/24/12 10:26pm
Msg #409798

Re: Those persons can get notarizations at their consulate

I'll be happy of all those foreigners abandon Disney World and bring their money to the Vermont ski slopes. Looks like FlaNotary2 would like that too.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 1/24/12 10:41pm
Msg #409803

Re: Common sense. English is still the standard language

They can use whatever language they prefer, however the notary certificate (at least in Florida) must be in English.

And if they need to use the notarized document in their own country they would probably require an apostille or certificate of notarial authority (unless they went to their own consulate which may not need the extra steps)

Reply by HisHughness on 1/24/12 9:41pm
Msg #409788

Re: Common sense. English is still the standard language

Well, actually, common sense sends me the exact opposite message. What is there that makes sense about requiring a document in Swahili that will enable a transaction in Kenya to be notarized by a certificate in English and then the English certificate translated into Swahili but not completed? If the notary understood the original certificate in Swahili, why not just notarize that?

This is one of those inexplicable things that get hung on a simple process that is supposed to identify a person as one who signed a document, and, when appropriate, have the signer swear to the truth of the averments. The language used does not impact either of those functions.

Reply by HisHughness on 1/24/12 9:28pm
Msg #409785

Re: Hugh, if you don't speak or read the language

I speak English quite well, I think, but yesterday had to look up the definition of the word "munificent". Does that mean I don't speak or read the language?

Conversely, my Spanish is painfully limited. Yet I know precisely what "Mi espanol es muy limitado" means. Does that mean I speak and read Spanish?

If I use the same acknowledgement and the same jurat each time for notary certificates, and I ascertain before I ever begin using them exactly what each says, why would I need to be conversant with anything else in a language in order to be able to notarize? That makes no sense.

Reply by BrendaTx on 1/25/12 6:05am
Msg #409818

Hugh, I agree that this is not addressed

in Texas notary laws--not that I can find.

I need to look into this and find out more.

Reply by Susan Fischer on 1/24/12 7:00pm
Msg #409764

" or that a qualified, trustworthy translator is present"

does not preclude the Notary as "a qualified, trustworthy translator" that I can see.

Since the translation is allowed, what's the problem?

Reply by VT_Syrup on 1/24/12 7:09pm
Msg #409766

Re: " or that a qualified, trustworthy translator is present"

The question was whether the certificate could be written in a foreign language. The Florida manual says the certificate must be in English.

By the way, we all agree that the signer's name may be written in non-Roman characters in almost all states; it's the rest of the certificate that must be in English in at least Florida, California, and any other state that has mandatory certificate wording, right?

Reply by Susan Fischer on 1/24/12 7:36pm
Msg #409768

As I read it, the cert that the Notary signs/stamps is in

English, but a translation of the cert is allowed. If the translation is placed above the English verbiage (sans sig/stamp,) and there is a sig/stamp properly beneath English cert, i.e. Jurisdiction - State of Florida, County of Gator, USA, etc., then I would be in compliance with FL law, no?

Reply by jba/fl on 1/24/12 7:55pm
Msg #409770

Re: As I read it, the cert that the Notary signs/stamps is in

Only if you move to FL and become a notary for Florida.

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 1/24/12 9:26pm
Msg #409784

Um... no. I would like to see that Florida DMV try to put a

name on a driver license in non-Roman characters. I have never seen someone use an all Arabic name in this country.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 1/24/12 9:45pm
Msg #409789

Re: Um... no. I would like to see that Florida DMV try to put a

A person from an Arabic-speaking country who is visiting the US would drive under the authority the drivers license issued by his or her home country. That license would most likely have Arabic writing on it. Some states would require an international driver's license to be used together with (not instead of) the home-country license. The person's passport, which is what a US notary would probably use for ID, is likely to have Arabic writing (perhaps with Roman letters too). So if the person needs to sign the document in Arabic, and the notary is capable of determining the name and signature matches the ID (or the notary personally knows the signer), what's the problem? How would you like it if you were visiting Saudi Arabia, needed to sign a power of attorney, and they told you you had to sign the Arabic transliteration of your name?

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 1/24/12 9:55pm
Msg #409790

Saudi Arabian passports have Roman-letter names

http://www.flickr.com/photos/london/2441510307/

Further, an International Driving Permit is only a translation of the original DL, and in Florida we can only accept DLs from another U.S. state, Canada or Mexico. If the person had a Saudi Arabian passport it would not only have the name printed in both Roman and Arabic letters, but in order for us to accept it, the passport must be stamped by the DHS. In order to be accepted by the DHS it would need a U.S. visa, which would have the name in Roman letters. US Visas are not issued in Arabic characters.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 1/24/12 10:01pm
Msg #409791

Re: Saudi Arabian passports have Roman-letter names

If the document is to be used in Saudi Arabia, the signer might need the name given in Arabic writing on the notary certificate. Also, the photo does not show the holder's signature (or maybe Saudi Arabian passports do not contain the holder's signature). The signer might not be capable of signing in Roman characters. So would it be a good idea to have the signer sign in a different alphabet than the signature on the ID, or a different alphabet than used in the name entered in the notarial certificate?

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 1/24/12 10:16pm
Msg #409794

You are talking in circles

You are spinning such a complex situation... I have never had a client with a non-Roman letter name, and if I did, I would not notarize with an Arabic name, as I couldn't write Arabic if I tried. Florida law requires that notaries only be able to read and write in English. Let someone file a discrimination lawsuit if they want. I can't write Arabic and won't attempt to.

In Florida - all certificates must be entirely in Roman-letter English. End of story.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 1/24/12 10:32pm
Msg #409800

"End of story" sayeth the Emperor of Florida n/m

Reply by jba/fl on 1/24/12 11:37pm
Msg #409808

Patricia, that is a bit over the top...not necessary.

You are talking in circles, in extremes of "what if" and so on. Bear baiting if you ask me (which you didn't, but you get my opinion anyway. Of course, that is free, so it isn't worth anything, but I feel better.)

BTW - would love for some of those tourists to head to VT instead of WDW. Let them wreck your environment for a while. In fact, why not just get your own WDW going up there....you will love it.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 1/25/12 5:58am
Msg #409817

No..so sayeth the Florida Governor and SOS. n/m

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 1/24/12 10:37pm
Msg #409801

Re: Saudi Arabian passports have Roman-letter names

Robert, I am not sure about Saudi Arabian passports having Roman-letter names (although I am pretty sure they do). The link you gave, if you look at it closely it is a Visa not a passport.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 1/24/12 10:43pm
Msg #409805

Re: Saudi Arabian passports have Roman-letter names

I can check with my client who I do the apostille work for about the Arabic speaking country's passports.

Reply by jba/fl on 1/24/12 11:30pm
Msg #409807

Saudi Arabian passports do not have Roman-letter names

I googled, got images.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 1/25/12 9:41am
Msg #409823

Re: Saudi Arabian passports do not have Roman-letter names

I googled last night and looked at the images. There were not a lot of Saudi Arabian passports with the relevant page, and some of them were clearly Visa's.

But I did get a reply from my client and he said that the Iraqi passports have both roman letters and arabic letters - so am assuming all arabic passports have both.

Reply by jba/fl on 1/24/12 7:26pm
Msg #409767

the statement from the manual is

""For a person who is signing a document written in a foreign language not understood
by the notary."

I cannot underline or highlight - 'not understood by the notary.'

Reply by SharonMN on 1/24/12 3:14pm
Msg #409745

I'd have no problem attaching an English ack or jurat if I could determine competence to sign and the person appeared before me (and took an oath, if jurat).

However, one point no one has brought up: With any document that is being sent overseas, I will happily notarize it but I also ask the person if they are sure a notary is what they need, because notary powers differ in other countries, and frequently what they really need is a certified copy of something (marriage certificate, school transcript, certificate of incorporation, etc.) from the appropriate agency. I remind them that I'm not responsible for determining that the document will legally accomplish their goal.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 1/24/12 3:22pm
Msg #409746

Chop

I had a roommate from Taiwan in college, and I know Chinese people like to use chops (Chinese characters arranged in a rectangle; their made of wood or ivory but are used like a rubber stamp). I'd have no problem with that, provided that I had some trustworthy ID card, passport, etc. that showed the chop, so I would really know the chop was theirs. It wouldn't do to notarize Chen Miao and find out the name on the chop is some other name entirely.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 1/24/12 3:27pm
Msg #409747

Re: Chop (that is, I'm OK with chop AND penned signature) n/m

Reply by C. Rivera Chicago Notary Services on 1/24/12 4:46pm
Msg #409749

depends on YOUR state's notary law. If here in IL, I can

notarize their signature on that document, assuming the signer had proper & current ID and if the signer understood or could read the document itself.

Reply by Buddy Young on 1/24/12 6:29pm
Msg #409761

in California, a notary public can notarize a signature on a document in a foreign language with which the notary public is not familiar, since a notary public's function only relates to the signature and not the contents of the document. The notary public should be able to identify the type of document being notarized for entry in the notary public's journal. If unable to identify the type of document, the notary public must make an entry to that effect in the journal. The notary public should be mindful of the completeness of the document and must not notarize the signature on the document if the document appears to be incomplete. The notary public is responsible for completing the acknowledgment or jurat form. When notarizing a signature on a document a notary public must be able to communicate with the customer in order for the signer either to swear to or affirm the contents of the affidavit or to acknowledge the execution of the document. An interpreter should not be used, as vital information could b e lost in the translation.

I would think that the acknowledgement or jurat would be in english.